Re: CA Moore: OT: Spike, Freud and Vampires

[danspector@xxxxxxxxx]

CA,

Granted, I'm not one for Spike Support right now, and any positive words
for the Insufferable Little Twerp (someone's else's name, which I
proudly adopt) will provoke a knee-jerk reaction. And granted, I know
beans about psychology studies. But I still have to disagree.

To say that humans have been wrong about vampires being soulless because
they've been fighting them is specious. Knowledge of the enemy is a key
to doing battle and no organization could have been as successful over
the centuries as The Watchers' Council has been if they didn't even get
the basic facts on vampires correct.

You say Angel was wrong when he said the vampire does not have a human
soul. Angel has been a man, a soulless vampire and an ensouled one,
wouldn't he have learned from his own experiences the differences
between having and not having a soul and be able to tell the difference?

Besides, demons (and demons in human form=i.e. vamps) can smell the
presence or absence of a soul. It's probably how vampires recognize
each other when in human form. (And slayers should be able to spot them
similarly, as Giles tries to tell Buffy in "Welcome to the Hellmouth".)
Darla cringes in revulsion when Angel gets resouled in "The Prodigal";
Doc "can't smell a soul" on Spike in "The Gift"; Skip the Friendly Demon
can tell Angel's a vampire in "That Vision-Thing".  

Let's not forget the Judge, that big, blue, immortal bad mofo whose sole
purpose is to detect humanity or any variance from the course of true
demonhood and destroy it. When he tries to burn Angelus in "Innocence"
and can't, he tells Spike that there is "no trace of humanity" in him.
Had Angelus been carrying a submerged soul, he'd have been crispy-fried.

(Slight divergence to remind you that however much he may coo at Buffy,
Spike is incapable of Love. The Judge said, disgustedly, that Spike and
Dru "share affection and jealousy" and, again, knowing this sort of
thing is this immensely powerful and immortal demon's sole reason for
existing. Had they loved, they'd have been destroyed.

(Spike cannot love because he has no soul and the soul is where love
comes from. The Guide [in the form of the Primal Slayer] tells Buffy in
"Intervention" that "you love with all your soul". That's why lovers are
called soulmatesno soul, no love.)

Also, Jenny (and later, Willow) wouldn't have need the Orb of Thesulah
(which summons the soul from the ether so it can be transferred back
into a body) to restore Angel's soul, if it already WAS IN his body, but
submerged.

In addition, the vampire's weaknesses all stem from his lack of a
soulvulnerablity to religious objects like crosses, inability to
survive the purity of sunlight. These are present because a vampire is
an abomination, abhorrent in the eyes of God. A creature with a soul,
however submerged, would not be so punished and cast out.

The fact that vampires retain some personality traits does NOT mean that
they are the humans they were, infected by a vampiric "parasite". As
Wesley says in "Disharmony":  

"THAT is not your friend. That THING may have your friend's memories,
her appearances, but it's just a filthy demon, an unholy monster."

And let's acknowledge that, twittish tendencies aside, Wes is a superb
researcher who has spent his life studying millenia of demonology and
vampire lore. I'm inclined to believe he knows what a vampire is and is
not.

Besides, your conclusion that a vampire's actions are ultimately
determined by a still-present human host impugns all those innocent
souls who died horrific deaths and then rose as fanged fiends. Jesse,
Theresa, Eddie, and so on, none of them were the immoral murderers their
vampire selves became before they died. And your argument basically
says that Willow and Xander are evil (see "The Wish"). Sorry, not
buying that one.

So I'm going to stand with Buffy, Giles, Jenny, Enyos, Willow, Wesley,
Angel, Darla, Doc, Spike himself and everyone else in the Buffyverse on
thisA vampire is NOT the person who was bitten.

Like I said, BleachBoy apologia=Sore Spot. Pardon my going ranty.

Dan

"Now you listen to me! Jesse is dead! You have to remember that when
you see him, you're not looking at your friendyou're looking at the
thing that killed him."
Giles ("The Harvest")

"I don't like vampires. I'm gonna take a stand and say they're not
good."Xander ("The Harvest")