Re: sc rose: OT: Spike, a rebuttal from Jung prospective and Vampires

[danspector@xxxxxxxxx]

Once more into the breach, etc.&

sc,

[WARNING: bad joke ahead!]

Hmm, I'm debating this with CA Moore and sc rose; I feel like I'm
battling The Initial-tive.

[told you]

[and anyway, some of this is more in reaction to Alnisa Allgood]

On prejudice: well, you don't mention which prejudiced society you were
exposed to, but I would guess that even there, the leaders, those who
had done the deepest studies of the object of hatred and even a good
part of masses knew what the enemy was, they just either manipulated
opinion for their own ends, gave into negative emotions, or kept silent
out of fear. Again, The Watchers' Council may be hidebound and
insensitive to individual's emotions, but they've millenia of knowledge
at hand, they know the habits of every demon sub-species and the history
of every magickal object out thereI'm still going to wager these guys
haven't made a monumental fundamental flub like not realizing vampires
are humans with souls and a parasite problem.

And let me remind you of the citations I gave that you cut out, that
everyone in the Buffyverse, including the vampires themselves, believes
that they are soul-less.

And that demons can smell souls and their absence (I believe that's also
how Wolfram & Hart's vampire detectors work), and that The Judge could
find no trace of humanity in Angelus, and that the Orb of Thesulah
summons the spirit out of the ether, and did it on-camera.

People keep mentioning Harmony as an example to say that vampires are
still the same people they always were, just with a new factor in the
equation. Well, Harm was a "vacuous tramp", but she didn't hang with
the real nasty folks at school (Kyle and his gang, from "The Pack",
Sheila from "School Hard", or Rodney Munson from "Inca Mummy Girl") and
she died heroically, fighting the Mayor in "Graduation Day, Part 2".
Let's not forget that while the Mayor had told Snyder to withhold the
diplomas of any student who didn't attend graduation, so he could have
plenty to feed on, the Scoobs told the students exactly what was going
on, and every kid who went to graduation knew that they were risking
death and made a conscious, heroic choice to do so. They could have
run, like Anya did, but they didn'tthey were heroes no vamp could
ever hope to be. So let's respect Harmony Kendall, fallen hero, and
distinguish her from the amoral, cover-your-ass traitor her vampire self
is in "Disharmony". Yes, the vampire took on her incompetent aspect,
just like vamp Willow took on Willow's bisexual aspect. But that's not
Harmony we've seen the last two years, that's a thing wearing her face.

Also a small memorial to Larry Blaisedale, for whom we wish eternal
dreams of Xander-cuddles, and a nod to Jonathan Levinson, who actually
fought well, and a note that his current villainous treatment is untrue
to the character.

While vamp-Harmony may be incompetent and vamp-Willow bi, most vampires
are noticeably different from the humans whom they killed and now
inhabit. Yes, Darla was a hooker (well, not a "hooker", since that term
was coined 200 years after she died, but&), but Liam was a
non-confrontational layabout where Angelus was a focused master of
cruelty, William was a muzzy introvert where Spike is a "cool"
sociopath, and Drusilla was innocence personified and is now totally
debauched.

Citation correction, though: the episode where Darla senses and is
revolted by Angel's soul (would she be likely to do that if she was
carrying one herself?) is not "The Prodigal", but "Five by Five". And
the stated theme of "Five by Five", which Wesley expresses in his
argument with Cordelia in reference to Marquez, the gang member (but
which also applies to Angel and Faith as their stories unfold in the ep)
is:

"He may be a ruffian, but he's already got a souland therefore,
somewhere deep down inside him, an urge to do what's right."

An urge to do what's right. Something notably lacking in vampires.
I-don't-need-no-stinking-soul-Spike hasn't done anything that wasn't for
him, or Dru or Buffy or Dawn, nothing resembling altruism. And his
saving the world in "Becoming, Part 2" wasn't about selfish altruism, as
in his "Happy Meals on Legs" speech or any of the pleasures he found in
itafter all, he abandons Buffy and the battle and leaves the world in
peril once he has Dru back. And he doesn't even want her back out of
lovehis affections have already started going towards Buffy, which
Dru calls him on in the "Fool for Love" flashback and which is the
reason she has never wanted to go back to him (as opposed to Angelus,
whom she rather touchingly misses)Spike is just upset that Angelus
has taken Dru away from him (all the Twerp's insecurity issues coming
back) so he betrays Angelus (and Dru, remember) to pay him back and take
her away physically. His lachrymose whining in "Lovers Walk" is about
her rejecting him, not any actual love. (His final solution is to
torture Dru back into his life, not actually connect with her
emotionally, or anything like that. And he doesn't actually do that,
eitherI don't think he even sees her again until "Crush"he instead
settles for Harmony, who's just "comfort food" for his ego.)

But while I argue that vampires are soulless, incapable of higher
emotions (such as True Love), and not being the humans whose images they
take, that doesn't mean they are void of all emotion. Yes, Spike and
Dru had affection and jealousy (but, Alnisa, The Judge said they reeked
of humanity, not human love). Spike can lust for, obsess over, adore,
be protective of, and take comfort in Buffy, he just can't love her.
Perhaps that even makes him a tragic figure. William wanted to be in
love (although he clearly had no emotional connection with Cecily, just
desire and a need for the higher emotions he was seeking), now he's
cursed to look for something he can never truly understand, much less
have.

And I haven't always objected to Spike, it's just that his recast as the
male hero is repugnant and so I'm taking him down several deserved pegs.
And I really don't like him having things better than Angel, which, as
we've said, basically undercuts Angel's whole redemptive arc.

Also of course, this season is so much "Willow Bad, Spike Good" that in
objecting to the one, I'm getting rather irked at the other.  

And, sc, Willow may be getting tempted into committing evil acts, but
she is not, at her core, evil. I don't think Joss or Marti or anyone,
down to the guy who sets up the craft service, would go that far.
Besides (vaguing things up to avoid spoilers) "All the Way" seems to
indicate that they're doing this arc as an allegory for addiction, which
is a disease, not a conscious choice.

Alnisa, while humans have the capacity to be more evil than certain
demons, even those humans have a far higher moral potential than the
demons, they just squandered it. And while there are harmless,
assimilated demons like Merl, the truly good demons are half human, like
Doyle or the Grusalugg, or agents of the PTB, like Lorne. Whistler
isn't actually good, he's just devoted to Balance and so was on Buffy's
side in certain events.

sc, aside from my not particularly enjoying the "crap" term, don't get
all wonky about the movie's place in canon. It's canon-lite. Buffy was
a freshman when called, not a junior. There is more than one Watcher,
and Watchers are not eternally reincarnated. And Buffy can't sense
vampires because they cause menstrual cramping, thank God! Although
that certainly would have kept her off of Dead Boy and the Big Blah (my
name, this time), so not such a bad thing.

And vamps need more than an overcast to walk around in even diffuse
sunlight. That snowstorm in "Amends" was a) bad writing to try and fit
a Christmas theme and b) a specific intervention by the PTB on behalf of
Angel, like his return from Hell or his being able to break the
invitation barrier and save Kate in "Epiphany". It's been acknowledged
that the PTB have a particular interest in Angel, so they cut him slack
on occasion.  

And yes, vamps can change the rules through magic, like anyone else,
that's why it's magic. But that doesn't mean that there aren't rules
and that they didn't spring from a reason (soullessness).

And that's that. Look for a later, but shorter, missive on "All the
Way".

Dan

"Love is for souls, not for bodies"The Vision, Giant-Size Avengers #4

(Hey, if Xander can base 90% of his life on Marvel Comics, I can quote
them for Buffyverse topics. Besides, it's The Avengers, one of his
specific touchstones)