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OK once adain cross posting cuz this Ep got REALLY
under my skin Becase Buffy is my favorite charactor. And I make no apologies for
wanting to defend her. But this Ep has left me a mess to the point were I
cant form coherant thought. So Im barrowing from those who can.
In this case I hope Eileen wont mind me
sharing her wisdom :) Once again Apologies To those who get multiple
copies.
James &n
bsp;
From: Eileen Gormly
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 1:18 PM
Subject: [buffydiscussion] Empty Places - you thought Sakina was
long? ha! Well, at the end of this episode my first thought was, "Becky is going to be so upset with this". <grin> So were most of us, I see. In fact, it was interesting that nearly everyone said exactly the same thing, "it was *painful* to watch". This was the first thing said to me by several of my friends, as well. I agree with Max that the season finales have often been harrowing on Buffy, but we always had the next season to look forward to. It's weird to me that Joss and Marti and the others would put us all through all of this with, as is continually brought up, only three episodes to go. If you are engaged with the characters - it hurts to watch what is happening (and why make it this hurtful?). If you are not engaged with the characters, you are going to stop watching. This is exactly what has happened to two of my friends who enjoyed the witty banter and fun situations. "It's no fun anymore", quoth they. And they stopped watching. I loved Sakina's possibility that we are seeing things from Buffy's shut down perspective - I can only hope that is true. When I mentioned this to my friend, she said it would be great if it were like Same Time, Same Place where we saw the same scene from two different perspectives. If we could go back and see the "behind the scenes" stuff where we see how everyone got to the point of throwing Buffy out. I would also like Thran to be more specific in her argument. You say that it's been "charge - go wrong" several times this season, which leads right to "we don't trust your judgment anymore", and I'm trying to find evidence of that. Help me out, darlin'. Now for my observations: The opening scene of people fleeing - that was a first. And odd, too. We saw that thingsgot crazy at the school when the seal was uncovered, but they took care of that (we think). There was a reference last week that half the kids were gone from the school (but not gone enough to stop going to the Bronze, apparently). But why? We've not had any evidence that anything beyond attacks on Buffy and the girls was happening in Sunnydale. I very much wish they had established what other evils were taking place that made everyone, finally, flee the city. Heck they didn't flee the city when demons came rampaging, rioting, and burning back when Buffy was dead. But NOW they go? I want to know why. I don't feel that was properly established. "If you save the world,I'll come back. We'll have drinks. When... when... when you save the world." Yes, Clem was definitely FOCL and one of the few in this episode. Both Plato and Shakespeare agreed that you must enliven your drama with a little comedy. Except for this and the Jonathan/Spike Onion Blossom conversation, there was no relief. That's another reason why these episodes are being so hard to watch. Mind you, we all complained (with reason) earlier in the season when there was more comedy but that was because, to be blunt, it wasn't integrated well. I was wondering where Robin was, again, when finally he showed up. Explain to me why this single guy with basically no job now, was not permanently at the Summer's home? He's a fighter as good or better than the average PSs and can be there to help protect / train them. So why isn't he? The scene with Buffy and Willow in Xander's room struck me as slightly different than the rest of you. Yes, it was "let's get on with fixing this", etc., but I really felt that her stand-offish, brusquenesswas a direct result of the guilt she felt about Xander. That she felt badly but had not one to discuss it with. I think if she had, she wouldn't have hit Faith when Faith made that crack about messing up. And that was wrong, because she should have been able to talk to Willow, able to talkto Spike, able to talk to Dawn. But did she feel that she had to NOT show indecision (although she has up the ying-yang before now), not admit to a mistake because she thought they wouldn't continue with her? And that did lead me to this thought... Maybe the reason why this wasthe first she'd heard of any problems in the ranks was because the rest of them had felt there was no space for any disagreements to be aired. I think this is a problem with BOTH sides of this issue. Buffy hasn't come right out and asked for help making plans (but she has history with several of these people that they DO help make plans). And none of the rest of them has given ANY proactive help with making plans. That has long been our complaint this season. Not one of these people has said, "could we try this - how about that - what about..." Every single one of them has said, "we have a huge problem - Buffy what do we do?" That right there was precisely what made me furious with the group of them saying her plan was bad. Buffy was completely sideswiped by this reaction and unable to come up with the reasonable response of "well, then what do you suggest?" You say "who made Buffy the leader?" The answer is, "every single one of you candyass, sit around and whine 'buffy what do we do?', sit in Buffy's house expecting Buffy to pull your nuts out of the fire people". Every time you've said to her, "you must protect these girls." "You have to defeat the First." "What do we do?" you made her the leader. "Why don't you attack?" "Why did you attack?" Which, you'll notice for all my trying to be evenhanded about this lands the majority of the blame, in my not so humble opinion, directly back on the gang of them. Every single one of them dumped so much responsibility and pressure on her and offered little to no help. Yes, they researched; yes, they read books; yes, they trained. Not one of them said, "hmmm, that plan sounds okay, but what if instead of a, we did b?" "I have an idea, why don't we try..." I was very surprised we saw no one directly saying, before the ambush, "Buffy, you are to blame for that fiasco." However, I findit totally typical of the "new" Giles that he would throw Buffy's statement back at her in front of everyone. When she said that she didn'tfeel like she had support, she was speaking specifically to Giles and she hada good reason to say it. He turned around and said, "You said you didn't trust any of us" which is NOT what she said. And again, she was so taken aback that he'd do that to her that she couldn't respond. Now, to back up a bit from the ambush. Buffy and Caleb at the school. I would like to know why everyone has accepted the idea that The First would illogically choose to kill Buffy last and not questioned it. It is obvious that Caleb (and even before, the Turak-han) could kill Buffy easily. But they don't. And no one seems to think, "why is that?" If they could kill Buffy easily, then it would be that much easier to pick off the rest of them. Why pick off the rest of them, getting Buffy angrier and more prepared to fight, and thengo after her last? How do the bad guys (or even the good for that matter) know that maybe killing off the rest of the PSs wouldn't concentrate that much more power in Buffy? Caleb completely knocked Buffy out and then walked away. He could have reached over and broken her neck then. But he didn't. And no one seems to ask themselves why that is. Faith and the Bronze. Am I the only one that noticed that Faith tried to stop the underage girls from drinking? That she just wanted to give them a break. And that it wasn't a bad idea. It also wasn't a bad idea for her to go outside with the cops, because Faith reasonably assumed that they would simply take her in or maybe, at most, try to rough her up. When they pulled the guns - that changed everything. And not a one of them, Faith, Kennedy, Buffy, etc., could have predicted that the cops would have done that. And therefore, I was rather pissed at a) Faith for not saying, "they pulled guns on us, Buffy" and b) Buffy for taking her frustrations out on Faith. Buffy automatically assumed that Faith was just being her rebel, beatup on anybody self, and that wasn't true. And she should have asked Faith what happened, been prepared to actually listen to Faith's answer, and then talk to Faith, separate from the girls about whether it was a good idea or not. Buffy's problems with the corps of PSs has been her two-sided approach. On the one hand, she views them as children to be protected at all costs. Versions of her 15-16-17 year old self that she doesn't want to have to go through what she went through. On the other hand, they are her troops and if she went through hell - why shouldn't they? But she needs / needed to pick one or the other. I agree with TSakina?Thran? that having this fight at the Bronze, brought them closer together and gave them a chance to fight where it wasn't as life and death as the First. And Buffy needs to see that they need to do that. Why aren't the girls out there patrolling in groups of, say, five? Why hasn't she turned over their complete training to Giles - why isn't he out drilling them? But no, somehow this seems to be the job of Buffy or Anya or Kennedy. What's up with that. Anyway, this was, I think, a very important exchange: Robin: Why didn't you fight back? Faith: Other things mattered more. Did anyone else notice that the statement "you should run away" was mentioned in some variationor another four times in this episode. I agree that Buffy is now outside of the box and any chance of her fulfilling Caleb's wishes to lead the PSs anyplace is gone unless they all stupidly forget that The First can appear as Buffy. And now that they have kicked Buffy out, how will they knowfor sure that any future Buffy they see is the real one? I totally agree that (and this is again where I want Thran to give me proof) that I can see the PSs, including Kennedy not being happy with Buffy. I can even see Faith and Robin. I do not get Xander and I don't get Willow. To my mind, this really did feel exactly like "I got hurt now, so I don't want to play anymore". I can understand why the PSs wouldn't be happy about Spike, but the rest of them do have the history to know that Buffy's statement of "he's the next strongest WARRIER" is exactly correct. And it feels like they are letting their PERSONAL animosity towards him blind them to exactly how correct Buffy is. And finally, we're back to Buffy's instincts. As Grace said, to the rest of them, nothing has changed and so why goback to the vineyard to be hurt or killed. I'm split about this. #1 Buffy's instincts are almost always correct - therefore they should follow her. #2 Buffy has a history of walking into traps knowingly and bad things happening - so they shouldn't. Responses: Yes Becky, I believe the reading, 'it is not for thee, it is for her only' refers to Buffy which is why anonymonk said, "Caleb read it and got very angry and killed everyone". Which is why I do NOT think that is why The First wants Buffy alive. I think that having a dead Buffy would be part of what would rectify the problem the Eye mentioned with the Slayer line and so diminish the First's powers (hello - wake up and smell the coffee Giles if you are the real Giles) and that is why he must do her LAST. Becky, I completely disagree with you about Faith's motivations (big surprise) but agree with nearly everything else non-Faith related that you said. I think Faith is just being Faith and so flirting with whatever cute male presents itself. I think her statement to Buffy of, "I'm here to support you but I won't be your lapdog" was true. It's a pity, once again, that we couldn't have had this, "I think we need to get a better plan" conversation couldn't have taken place in a much less confrontational way. I do not think that Faith expected anything like what happened to happen - she thought that maybe they would finally discuss stuff (not knowing, perhaps, that the non-discussion had never been Buffy's idea in the first place). I don't think Willow said, "I don't trust your judgment" based on Buffy not being more touchy-feely at the hospital. I don't quite get it either, but to me it does seem based on the number of deaths and Xander's pain. In fact, no one seemed to have any problems with Buffy's plans when only Buffy was getting the crap beaten out of her. But let someone else get hurt! I agree that Anya's statement of "you haven't earned leadership" to be bogus in the extreme. True to her character but untrue in fact. Yes, Buffy has been the one keeping it all going all these years. Buffy is theone y'all keep going to when the chips are down. Now you don't like her decisions and it's "who do you think you are telling us what to do?" Like several others of you, I kind of wished I could morph into the screen and bitch slap about half the people in that room. And yes, Rona included. Yes, I remember what Buffy was like; yes, Rona did not sign on to fight, she was shoved into it; but mostly Rona is taking her anger at the whole situation (as many of them are) and blaming it all on Buffy. Gee, isn't life going to be all sweetness and light now that the terrible Buffy person is out of the way. You'll be safe and happy and no one will ever attack you again. Yes, where the hell did Dawn get off saying, "it's my house too."? OH, you pay the bills and feed these girls? Yes, Dawn has been there supporting Buffy. Yes, she looked very upset that Buffy was all business-like with her at the table. I agree with Thran that Buffy has shut off too much of herself and isn't using the love she has as she has in the past (say that three times fast). But Dawn's "leave" was out of absolutely nowhere. Becky, Eliza is already picked for a pilot in a completely different tv show that we should see next season. She will NOT be in a Buffy spin-off as a main character. So say all the mags and on-line. Max, did not notice the opening music. Will relisten tonight with several friends who missed the ep. Heehee - didn't notice the Gilroy garlic thing! I love Max's comment that Buffy could have given over the command of the troops to Faith if she'd thought it out. Sakina, I like your comment about Giles: > He seems to have the same sort of stinted logic that Faith does at times--if something good comes out of the recklessness, he applauds it, and if something bad comes out of it, he berates the participants. So true. Becky, yes Anya said a stake would kill them. She also said the sternum was incredibly strong and then asked if they all had superstrength. The implication was that it could be done - but more like what Buffy had to do to that demon that came after Faith all those years ago. Take something really big and shove it in really hard. A regular stake wouldn't do it, as Buffy already proved. In fact, they didn't mention what did already work, decapitation. And back to big weapons, while a gun wouldn't, a chainsaw or rocket launcher just might be able to take it out. And finally, my feeling about Buffy come back in to save the day and all of the gang and girls once she's got her heart back? Well, I'm a vindictive little thing sometimes, I'd be all "you wanted me out? Deal with the consequences, you morons." The Eileen === We can't stop just because something else is trying to kill you, too. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Buffy: It's weird. You look at something and you think you know exactly what you're seeing, and then you find out it's something else entirely. Willow: Neat, huh? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ For List help contact Max (maxvl@xxxxxxxxxxx) BuffyDiscussion List Abbreviations: FOCF = Falling Off the Couch Funny FOCL = FallingOff the Couch Laughing Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. |