Re: Re: Joss has NO point (re: Tara's death,Joss's excuse, and gullibility)

["Adrienne Wright" <adrienne_wright@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

guys guys (sorry if either of u is a girl here), lets just go back to our corners and cool off a little before someone has to throw cold water over u two.... remember that the idea of these lists is to discuss the show and write fan fic for tha masses... never to denigrate anyone else for their opinions

REmember love and light guys love and light

Adrienne
----- Original Message ----- 
From: danspector@xxxxxxxxx 
To: buffywantswillow@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 6:21 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Joss has NO point (re: Tara's death,Joss's excuse, and gullibility)


I have criticized Joss. I have criticized Spike. I have not criticized
you. (Except for making false statements about those criticisms, and
stating that they were "ridiculous and you should know that". And also
for criticizing me for criticizing Joss and Spike, and, to my mind,
implying that I had no right to do so. Well, you may have actually said
that explicitly, but I can't swear to it, so I'll only mention my
emotional reaction.)

You are not Joss. You are not Spike. Calling Joss "mealy-mouthed" is
not an attack on you. Calling Spike a rapist and mocking the fact that
he appears to be being groomed as the hero of the show and Buffy's
ultimate romantic partner is not an attack on you. Deriding a character
to whom you appear to be attached is not an attack on that attachment or
on you, personally.

So yes, I have the right to be insulted when you accuse me of having
said things I have not. And I am not "calling the kettle black" because
I have not launched similar "personal attacks" on you.

Plus, I am willing to admit when I overstep. Your frequent pro-Spike
statements and your insistence that there is Buffy/Spike subtext
pre-Season 6 (which I recall your implying I was being small-minded for
disagreeing with you about back on JaaBaW, btw) do not automatically
make you a Buffy/Spike supporter. That sentence should have read "your
fellow Spike fans, the Spuffys". My apologies for that.

And my original post was in reply to Joss's defense of the arc, in which
Joss himself raised the issues of his emotions, his motivations, and his
sensitivity on these issues. I countered by explaining why I felt his
explanation was self-serving and insensitive to other's perceptions of
the arc, and why I therefore felt that he should have taken that into
account. I felt his defense was facile, self-serving, and hypocritical
(his statement, not Joss himself in all circumstances) and elucidated
why.

You replied by accusing me of making criticisms of Joss that I had not
made. I then clarified for your sake, again referring to Joss's actions
in the instance, not making sweeping statements about him personally as
you seem to like to think. I'm sure Joss has shown character many
times, notably the instances of standing up to gay-bashers that he seems
so proud of. However, here he lied unnecessarily and hurtfully (yes,
"unnecessarily" and "hurtfully" are statements of opinion, but I'll be
willing to defend them as such) and refused to apologize for it and said
that he felt the pain of killing Tara more deeply than the W/T 'shippers
who had criticized him. So, yes, I do find those actions of his lacking
in character.

If I say Joss lied in saying publically that "Tara wasn't going
anywhere", that is a criticism of his action. If I call him a lying
sack of shit, as is popular in certain circles now, that is a personal
attack. Please do not accuse me of doing one when I have done the other.

So I never criticized you (except as noted above), I never criticized
Joss personally, and I refrained from making the statements about Joss
that offended you so much until you asserted that I had made other
statements which I had not done. Therefore I most certainly do not feel
that I am the "pot" in this instance.

And of course we considered the possibility that Tara's death was for
the purpose of an eventual B/W hook-up. We did it at great length, in
fact. (Did you not read those posts? Hmm, if that is so, then perhaps
you shouldn't make implicit criticisms of us for not considering the
possibility.) However, the finale (which I can't discuss without adding
spoiler space) seemed to augur against that interpretation, and until
there is any evidence that positive gay characters are again being
presented on "Buffy", I think it's perfectly fair to criticize Whedon
for their absence, especially in light of his past basking in his
pro-gay laurels. If you go around saying how proud you are that people
feel you are a friend to the gay community, I don't find unfair at all
if people criticize you once you no longer appear to be so. 

Dan


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