Re: my rant - replies to Dan, Pedder

["mudrat_26" <mudrat_26@xxxxxxxxx>]

Hey there people,

Thanks for replying - sorry it's taken me a couple of days to get 
back to you, but I don't have PC access at home at the moment. 

Pedder - ta muchly for the comments - you expanded a lot of the 
points I was attempting to make. Much appreciated. 

Dan - I understand your point about episode discussion. I was happy 
with that when I signed up. I guess I should have clarified my point 
more - discussion of the ep itself is fine. It's just that when 
the "discussion" deteriorates into abusive personal attacks on the 
creators of BtVS simply because people disagree with what's 
happening, and siad attacks seem to carry on for days, it tends to 
get a little offensive to me, y'know? These are the people who 
created BtVS. They've created this fantastic world that we all 
escape to every week - a world that's fascinating, terrifying and 
entirely believable all at the same time. And some of the people 
posting such comments are fic writers, which surprised me - every fic 
requires the disclaimer stating that the characters are owned by 
Joss, ME etc, and most writers note that for feedback, constructive 
criticism/comments are fine, but all flames will be disregarded. And 
all the fic writers whose work I've read seem to treat each other 
with camraderie and respect, even if what the person has written 
isn't their cup of tea. Should that not also apply to the writers on 
the show? 

I think sometimes we lose sight of that bigger picture. I'm 
eternally gratefull to Joss, Marti and the entire team, regardless of 
whether I agree with every step the series takes or not - because 
they're still creating it, and I'd certainly miss it if it was gone. 
Not to say that you can't express your displeasure at an ep, just 
that a little balance would be nice - point out the good things as 
well as the bad.

Also, yes, my comment about "if you don't like it, don't watch" may 
have seemed simplistic. Again, my apologies - I should have 
specified the angle I was coming from. I simply believe that you 
have to draw a line and just give up on a series sometime. There are 
people out there (not only in this group, but others as well) who 
have been doing nothing but complain since S4. That's half the 
series. I reckon they should probably just accept that things ain't 
gonna happen the way they want them to and write it off as a lost 
cause.

After reading your initial reply, I was going to clarify a few 
points, but Pedder already beat me to it ;). But just to clear 
things up:

- yes, I agree, you will grow up a lot faster if you're fighting for 
your life every night. But that's just it - this season the problems 
the Scoobys have been facing haven't been demons and vamps - it's 
been the bank, social workers, weddings, their relationships with 
each other. Things that you can't just go out and slay - they've had 
to learn to deal on a different level and in a different way. That 
was the point of my comment about the changes between the ages of 18-
22 - for a vast majority of people, they're finding out what life's 
like out from under the care of parental figures. There isn't a Mum-
type person there to cook your meals and do all the washing, the 
fridge doesn't automatically fill up on it's own, there are things 
like rent, electricity, clothes etc to pay for. The little things 
they never had to worry about before, 'cos they were too busy 
worrying about the big things.

- also, the main point that Pedder brought up (thank you for 
translating my ramble) - the sexuality of the characters shouldn't be 
an issue at all. The way I see it, a character died. One of my 
favourite characters died. Not "the gay character died". I 
understand your point, Dan, about the cinematic cliche of lesbian 
characters dying as punishment because they're 
supposedly "unnatural"; but I also believe that such a cliche only 
comes into play if it's the intent of the film maker - and I really 
don't think that's the interpretation Joss and Co intended. And with 
all due respect (and I mean that, Dan - please don't be offended), 
sometimes people can tend to overanalyse the motives behind such 
scenes.

And on a personal note - again, to clarify my earlier statements: a 
lot of comments have been made about how the gay characters turning 
evil or being killed off is offensive. As per my previous statement, 
I don't believe that their being gay is relevant. Ask any gay person 
and they'll tell you that having it constantly pointed out that 
you're gay is actually quite insulting, regardless of the good 
intentions behind it. I'm openly gay with my family, my friends, and 
in my place of work - because it's part of who I am, and I don't want 
to be treated any differently to all those around me because of it. 
I've been in situations where allowances have been made, or I've been 
given advantages because of my sexual orientation. I've also been 
discriminated against, verbally abused and had physical violence 
threatened for the same reason. And I find both these things equally 
offensive - because I'm not just gay, I'm a person. I don't want 
that one characteristic to define my existence - I don't let it, so I 
don't see why the other people in my life should. Obviously, people 
who don't know me might focus on that one aspect - but no one on this 
list has that excuse with regard to the characters, because we know 
them. We know them like they're family, which is why I don't really 
understand why people aren't looking beyond this one aspect of their 
personalities.

That's why I percieve the characters as the Scoobys - not gay 
characters, not straight characters, just people. 

OK, so it's another essay. Sorry.

On a different note:
Speaking of fic - Dan, I was reading (and thoroughly enjoying) 
Straight Through the Heart on the buffywillowslash list, but can only 
find up to part 9. Is there any more? Is it complete? And where is 
it archived? You mentioned the names of some of the people who were 
archiving it, but there weren't any links/addresses to their sites. 
Help? If you're still speaking to me......





--- In buffywantswillow@y..., danspector@w... wrote:
> Pedder,
> 
> re: your last paragraph: LOL! I have SO been there, my man.
> 
> And to me the characters' various problems have seemed like excuses 
to
> go "oh, look, they're immature", not logical outgrowths of 
situations
> to which the characters reacted in any believable way.
> 
> On W/T, I'm just saying Joss can't get huffy about how he treated 
the
> gay characters just like the straight characters when NONE of the
> straights have died/gone evil and ALL of gays have. (Especially
> annoying because the lesbian dying or going insane [as punishment 
for
> being "unnatural"] is an offensive cinematic cliche, which Mr.
> I-Minored-In-Feminist-Film-Theory now claims to know nothing 
about.) And
> the death was utterly random and served no purpose in the storyline
> other than to have Willow go nuts. (Contrast with Jenny's and 
Joyce's,
> which evolved naturally from the story and served a multitude of 
ends.)
> Plus Tara really gets treated like garbage, post-death; I didn't 
even
> like her and I was annoyed.
> 
> Anyway, enough of that. When's the new fic coming? Did we not love
> "Something New" enough? I know, I promised a big honking review and
> never did it. But everyone else gave you the props, so don't let me
> hold you back. :)
> 
> Dan