Re: IT: Prioritising

["mudrat_26" <mudrat_26@xxxxxxxxx>]

Dan,

1. Wasn't talking about you specifically. Lots of fans, lots of 
feedback - I'm presuming that at least some of the people who aren't 
happy with the show are in Nielsen households. And if they're not, 
they always have th option of sending their feedback directly to the 
source.

2. "why can't I dislike certain things about a show and still watch 
it? Why can't I stay tuned out of fond memories and hope that things 
will get better again?" - Never implied that you couldn't. If, like 
myself, you weigh up the ep you've just watched and find more good 
than bad, then great. I'm happy with the show overall, and I still 
choose to watch - but that doesn't mean I've agreed with everything 
that has happened or every direction they've taken. But when I'm 
reading things like "Joss suck." "ME suck - how could they do this 
to us?" "They've ruined the show" "Marti has no idea" - well, I'm 
getting the strong impression that some people aren't just disliking 
*some* of it, they're canning *all* of it. If they're not enjoying 
*any* of it, why bother? And Dan, I'm not "having" anyone 
do "anything" - I'm simply pointing out that all viewers have a 
*choice* to watch or not watch. If you've not been happy with the 
direction the show is going, and you *choose* to watch anyway, be 
prepared that it still may not be exactly the way you want it to be. 

3. >>"At this time, I'm **not** planning on watching Season 7. Is it 
therefore okay for me to criticize the show, since I am going all the 
way on it, according to your paradigm? Or do you conceive of this 
list as only being fanfiction by and for people who love the show? 
And in that case, shouldn't we be writing Buffy/Spike pieces, because 
who are we to say that ME has it wrong, that Buffy doesn't love 
Captain Peroxide? Shouldn't, by your argument, our Patriotic Duty to 
ME mean that we have to love and support everything they do and 'ship 
only canon couples?
Harper Masterson writes damn good Faith/Cordelia fics for 
those 'shipper lists. Harper never liked the character of Buffy and 
hasn't watched "BtVS" since Season 3. Is she not allowed to 
write "Let That Lonesome Whistle", then? Pity, it rocked."<<

Are we even having the same discussion? Did I say that to be on this 
list you have to love the show and everything they do and only write 
for canon couples? I'm not sure where you got that idea, but I can't 
see how it came from my comments. I don't recall saying any of that, 
and I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't presume to know what I'm 
thinking or put words in my mouth. And if I *had* said any of that, 
I'd look pretty bloody silly, now wouldn't I, given that we are on a 
B/W list? I wasn't aware that they were a canon couple. 

What "patriotic duty" are you talking about? There's no black and 
white here, no right or wrong. I never said that to watch the show 
you must love everything they do. I've simply made the point that if 
people weigh up what they're watching and find more bad than good, 
they have the option of not watching. Also, I've stated before that 
as far as I, personally, am concerned the show and the world of fic 
are two entirely different things - I mean, it'd probably be an 
advantage to have watched a good sized block of the show (say half a 
season or so) at some point in time, so as to have some familiarity 
with the canon stuff, but for the record, no, I definitely don't 
believe you have to be a current viewer to write fic. Again, I don't 
recall saying anything of that nature.

4. As I stated (in agreeance with MadHamlet), I'd like to see more 
Fic than OT posts, to balance things out a little. And I do think 
the weekly indexes are a great idea.

5. >>"Actually, I think the basic causes of lurking are that people 
either don't feel they have anything to say in the way of fics or fb, 
or are worried that what they say won't be well received. (Which, 
btw, I believe is a mistake; we always welcome new participants.)"<< 

Well, the second point is exactly the reason I stated for being 
hesitant to post. I was intimidated for quite a while, given that my 
views differed from many of those being posted, til frustration 
finally got the better of me - after all, this is a list 
for "discussion". As for welcoming new participants...well, I 
haven't felt very welcome. I was, as stated in my first post, simply 
expressing my opinion - yet nearly every time I've posted, you've 
tried to shoot me down every step of the way. Not by saying that you 
disagree with me, that you hold a different opinion, but by firing up 
and putting your own meanings to what I've said. I don't think I've 
been that vague with my statements. If you think I'm implying some 
other meaning with a statement, ask me about it, don't make 
assumptions. 

6. Keep 'em coming, dude.

cheers, 
mudrat



--- In buffywantswillow@y..., danspector@w... wrote:
> mudrat,
> 
> 1. Actually, I'm not in a Nielsen household, so ME has absolutely 
no
> idea whether I'm watching or not. I can't send any "negative 
feedback"
> via the remote.
> 
> 2. I still feel that your "if you don't like it, don't watch" 
concept
> is logically flawed; why can't I dislike certain things about a 
show
> and still watch it? Why can't I stay tuned out of fond memories and
> hope that things will get better again? Most people enjoyed Season 
5
> more than Season 4; would you have had them quit and miss it? Or 
would
> you have said then that because you're still watching you have no 
right
> to say that Buffy and Riley have no chemistry, that the pace of the 
arc
> was messed up, that Adam was an unconvincing villain (get a rocket
> launcher, like with the Judge; Buffy should have solved that 
problem in
> three seconds), that there's no reason the gang doesn't stake 
Spike, and
> other generally-accepted criticisms of Season 4? 
> 
> 3. At this time, I'm **not** planning on watching Season 7. Is it
> therefore okay for me to criticize the show, since I am going all 
the
> way on it, according to your paradigm? Or do you conceive of this 
list
> as only being fanfiction by and for people who love the show? And 
in
> that case, shouldn't we be writing Buffy/Spike pieces, because who 
are
> we to say that ME has it wrong, that Buffy doesn't love Captain
> Peroxide? Shouldn't, by your argument, our Patriotic Duty to ME 
mean
> that we have to love and support everything they do and 'ship only 
canon
> couples?
> 
> Harper Masterson writes damn good Faith/Cordelia fics for 
those 'shipper
> lists. Harper never liked the character of Buffy and hasn't watched
> "BtVS" since Season 3. Is she not allowed to write "Let That 
Lonesome
> Whistle", then? Pity, it rocked.
> 
> 4. As I discovered and previously posted in response to Mad Hamlet,
> fics are up over this time last year, and in fact represent a higher
> percentage of the posts. You don't like the things that are being 
said
> in the OT posts, you don't have to read them, and, you say, you're 
NOT
> reading them, so what's the problem? That's why FIC posts are 
labelled
> "FIC" or "FF", so that those who wish to read only those posts can 
find
> them and read them. That's why I've started the Weekly Indexes, so
> people can find fics and read them. I fail to see the injury here.
> 
> 5. "And people wonder why we lurk." Actually, I think the basic 
causes
> of lurking are that people either don't feel they have anything to 
say
> in the way of fics or fb, or are worried that what they say won't be
> well received. (Which, btw, I believe is a mistake; we always 
welcome
> new participants.) I'm not inclined to do another research 
project. but
> I doubt there was a greater number of people posting this time last 
year
> in general. And that's when darn near everyone on this list was
> convinced that this was the greatest show in the history of 
television,
> and that Joss was (literally) God.
> 
> When I looked up last year's postings, I seem to recall that in the
> relevant week, aside from the authors, there were feedbacks from 
Panda
> Mel, Eliza Lover, Kirayoshi, Bill Gopher (and Red), Kimber, and 
maybe a
> dozen others, here and there. I did not get the impression that we 
once
> had a vast army of posters, all of whom are now lost to lurkdom. 
But as
> I said, I haven't statistically analyzed that, nor do I really wish 
to
> do so.
> 
> 6. Glad you liked the fics.
> 
> Dan