Re: Murder, morality, etc.

["CDS" <callistosdarkside@xxxxxxxxxx>]

In Angel, which is still a part of the Buffyverse, they've made it clear
that a soul doesn't mean anything. Lorne, is a good guy, helping people
find they're way, and risking his lives to save others. On the other hand,
the people at W&H, are killers and murderers.

Heck, I'm sure Giles has killed more than just Ben in his day, and Ben was
innocent. Willow, on the other hand, was exacting true justice, not what
the courts 'call' justice, i.e. letting murderers and rapists second, third,
and fourth times to commit the same acts over and over again.

If Buffy killed Lorne, just cuz he was a demon, I wouldn't forgive her. If
she killed Spike, I'd say yay! And do a happy dance.

The the soul point doesn't hold.


----- Original Message -----
From: <danspector@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <buffywantswillow@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 5:56 PM
Subject: Re: Murder, morality, etc.


CDS,

That's a perfectly good argument for punishment over penitence you put
forth.

But the thing is, for the Buffyverse to work ethically, Buffy's slaying
of vampires (even ones who haven't fully crawled out of the grave, as in
"Out of My Mind") must be a moral good. The paradigm works, to my mind,
something like this:

It's all right for Buffy to slay vampires because vampires are
irredeemably evil.

Vampires are irredeemably evil because they do not have souls.

If soullessness makes the unsouled irredeemable, it follows that
soulfulness guarantees the ensouled at least the potential of
redemption.

Therefore souled creatures should not be killed, unless there is no
other choice, because they have the potential to be good.

Warren was scum, sure. But not on the level of Faith, who committed:

.The murder of Lester Worth ("Graduation Day, Part 1")

.The murder of the courier ("Choices")

.The murder of Allan Finch (comes under "reckless disregard") ("Bad
Girls")

.The attempted murder of Xander ("Consequences")

.The attempted murder of Willow ("Choices")

.The attempted murder of Angel ("Graduation Day, Part 1")

.The attempted murder of Joyce ("This Year's Girl") (Buffy probably
also remembers an attempt to kill Dawn, or at least an assault, here)

.The attempted murder of Angel, again ("Five By Five")

.Accessory before the fact in the murders of Principal Snyder, Larry,
Harmony, and several other students ("Graduation Day, Part 2")

.Conspiracy to commit murder, in re the attempted murder of Willow
("Doppelgangland")

.Attempting to deprive Angel of his soul, on two different occasions
in "Enemies". Given Angelus's previous deeds, I think we can call this
a goodly amount of attempted murders.

.The assault, kidnapping, and torture of Wesley ("Five by Five")

.Stealing Buffy's body, which is at least assault ("This Year's Girl")

.The rape of Riley (by English law, deceit to obtain sexual favors
that would otherwise not be given equals rape; here I think it might
come under the statutes that cover sex with the mentally incapable)
("Who Are You")

.Multiple assaults, including Xander, Willow and Joyce, as mentioned
above, and also the Council henchman in "Consequences", the girl in the
hospital in "This Year's Girl" and Cordelia in "Five by Five".

.Attempting to frame Buffy for murder ("Consequences").

Girl makes Warren look like a piker. Yet she got a chance to pay for
her crimes in jail, and the possibility, if she chose, to work for
redemption. By the morality of the Buffyverse, I think Warren deserved
the same.

Dan

And there's no excuse for killing Rack. He sold drugs, big whoop. So
did Tim Allen, and any other number of currently productive citizens.
Stop them from selling and punish them, sure. Suck them dry and leave
them hanging, not so much.



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