Re: when did it all begin?

["jin_hayte" <jinhayte@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

> 1) Always nice to see a good discussion, but
> 2) We are a looong way from the original point, which was the origins of
> B/W 'shipping (in fandom, not on screen, as I understood Chris's
> original post), and 

I'd rather have off topic discussion than no discussion at all (which
has been the case here the last week)

> 3) Opinions are great, and I've got plenty, but let's remember that
> there are multishippers here.  We can criticize the 'shipsI'll be the
> first to say that I don't understand how awkward noncommunicative chats
> with your attempted rapist, where nothing is ever resolved (except
> teasing the 'shippers for another week) qualify as being "great"
> together (at least S6 Spuffy was "This sucks as a relationship, but the
> sex is hot" [well, we were told the characters found it hotfrankly, I
> thought Buffy looked fairly sickened], but S7 lacked even that upside),
> but let's make sure not to cross the line to personal attacks&which
> IMO "ick, ick, ick" is perilously close to.

"ick, ick, ick" is aimed at the 'ship, not the 'shipper. it's fair
game. going "man, you're sick if you like X 'ship", THAT'S a personal
attack.

> Giles is Buffy's friend, not her dad.

he's their "grown up friend...but not in a weird way". I believe it
was Willow who said something along that line.

> Giles didn't raise Buffy.

he didn't raise Buffy-Buffy, but he CERTAINLY raised Slayer-Buffy

> Giles didn't install her attitudes, her morals, her values.

yes, he did. not all of them, but some of her later beliefs and values
comes from Giles. 

> Giles doesn't have authority over Buffy in the least.

maybe not post 'The Body', but before that, yeah, he does. but that
authority isn't born from a strict sense of...well, authority, but
respect. compare Giles to Travers, for example; Giles has a HELL of a
lot more authority over Buffy than that old chump.

authority figure doesn't necessarily mean 'person who gives orders'.
to me, it means 'person who is older (or wiser) and respected'. Buffy
might tease and mock him a lot, but she has respect for him. I know; I
have a father of my own who can't order me around worth jack, but I
still respect and look upon him as authority.

> Yeah, he's an older guy who gives her information and tries to protect
> her.  Put a leather jacket on that and you've got Angel.

no. Giles looks old, Angel doesn't (this is something I'll come back to).

I pretty much stopped reading your post after this, cuz MAN that's a
lot. took you a long to type al that up? :P

anyway, say that Giles is her friend. say that he's an Angel without
the leather jacket. say that he's Buffy's "type".

there's still one big thing: he looks like his age. Buffy sees him as
'old'.

Season 4, Episode 1, 'The Freshman':

GILES: I'm not supposed to have a life?
BUFFY: No! Cuz you're very, very old, and it's gross!

it's clear that Buffy looks upon him as "old dude". add "who guides me
through life" to that, and I think that qualifies as a definition of
"father figure".

oh, and Spike does SO fit Buffy's type. he's not broody, but he's a
vampire; he's dark by default.





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Willow: "It's a good fight, Buffy, and I want in."
Buffy:  "I kinda love you."
                     'Choices'

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