Re: fic To those who wait; (HEAVY NC17!)

[danspector@xxxxxxxxx]

Patrick (goolecaptain),

Well, I said I didn't have a problem with age issue here and the "No
B/D" law had seemed to be muddied after last time so I didn't tear into
you on that issue, but I still wouldn't have let this post if I'd had
the option.  Allow me to explain myself:

This is a Buffy/Willow list, and your fics, well, aren't.

It's not that Off-topic fics aren't allowed (I myself have posted
Buffy/Faith, Buffy/Cordelia, and Willow/Cordelia here) but we try to
encourage the majority of the content to be B/W.  However, to my
knowledge, you've never written actual B/W fic, just 3 seconds of
contact in orgyfics, which seems to be a little wide of the mark as far
as topicality goes, and IMO doesn't make up for the massive
Buffy/not-Willow sex in those fics.

Now, I didn't mind "Those Left Behind" since it was just B/W/X and it
was specifically about them sharing more than just sex (the blood
Vamp!Buffy needed until she could be returned to humanity), but
following it with this one (more graphic, less connection, Dawn
involved) would have gotten a "try something else, please" from me.
Even inserting the BuffySpringer fic (where Willow romantically invites
Buffy into her and Tara's relationship) before this one would have been
enough of a vestige of topicality to make me feel better about Return of
the Orgyfic (with minimal B/W), but having this right after the other
fic was, IMO, too much.

And "Why Do We Write This", your ten-part amalgam of every disturbing
fanfic trend out there with barely a soupcon of B/W mixed in between the
incest/torture/etc was *way* over that line, as you may recall from my
(probably over-vitriolic) note when you thought about posting it here.

In short:  while "B/W are part of a close 3-person bond" is close enough
to on-topic, "minor B/W action in an orgyfic, which includes graphic het
or disturbing couplings" really isn't.  And while we allow *some*
OT-ness, it has to be balanced with the B/W goodness, in the long run.

Then, there's the subject of tastes, which I hesitate to bring up, as it
reeks of censorship.  But as there are posters here who specfically
delete everything you write, I thought I should mention the key problem
I have with several of your fics.

It's your propensity for the "happy sequal" fic.  (BTW, given that you
use the word so often, you should know it's spelled "sequel".)

To quote your email on this subject:

> certainly not trying to defend the indefensible, 
> rape/snuff/enslavement are indefensible and I 
> once joined a web group devoted to just that 
> so I could write happy sequals to all the 
> stories 

Here's the problems I have with this:

1)  By definition, all these fics deal with situations that greatly
disturbed you and thus are likely to be rather repulsive to much of the
readership.

2)  Not everybody reads what you read, so almost all of us have no idea
where the setups for these "sequel" fics are coming from.

3)  You don't recast the action of the original fic, you just jump right
in afterwards so that anyone who wants to know what's going on has to
look up the original (and you tend to provide neither a link nor an
adequate warning about the extremely disturbing content therein).
Generally, just reading your own fic (and skipping the other author's
repulsive fic that disturbed *you* so much) leaves the reader very
confused.

3a)  You do, however, tend to reference the events of the other author's
fic, so ttrummer's genital mutilation gets mentioned in your fic, for
example.  This leads to disturbing situations for those who just browse
your fic, with no knowledge of what they're getting into (and no, "HEAVY
NC-17" is not a good enough all-purpose warning, IMO).

In other words, to purge yourself of having read stuff you find vile yet
sought out, you inflict it, second-hand (if only through mentions in
your sequel) on us.  That's going to be a big turnoff, I hope you can
understand.

4)  I personally think that doing unauthorized "sequels" to another
author's work is a little skeevy.  Yes, I understand that most of this
is in response to works you find repulsive and couldn't care what the
author thinks, and I can sympathize with that.  (I was once hunting for
B/W and came across a site that included a serious number of "rape
Buffy" fics, all by the same author.  Buffy gets raped by the Master,
Buffy gets raped by the Fish Men from "Go Fish", Buffy gets raped by the
Ubervamp.  Got ill just reading the summaries.)

But, on the rare occasion where someone is familiar with your source
material, you run the risk of alienatimg them if they actually liked it.
Take for example, "Grasping for Life", your sequel to Katie Vieceli's
"Gasping for Breath".  Yes, Katie's fic is definitely disturbing, but
IMO it's an excellent fic and disturbing for a good reason:  she's
attacking all those "Buffy can't resist Angelus's sinister attraction"
fics (and, arguably, Buffy's own non-staking of Leatherpants during S2)
by taking the "I can't live without you, Angel, even if you are evil"
Weak!Buffy and giving her what Katie feels she deserves:  a degrading
bout of cemetery sex, during which Angelus kills Buffy in a painful and
humiliating fashion.  And I have to say, even though I thought your fic
was the best of your "sequel" fics (probably because I knew the
original), for you to come in and IMO neuter Katie's original point felt
like something of a violation, and I didn't like it.

So, basically, you're either repulsing readers by exposing them to
situations they chose to avoid and which you feel a need to purge via
the "sequel" fic, or you're annoying people by whitewashing dark fics
that they actually liked, without the original owner's consent.  That,
perhaps even more than the orgyfic and B/D trends in your "sequels", may
be why you tend to get a severely negative reaction from some readers.
(Although I should state that this is solely based on my knowledge of
*my own* negative reactions, not anyone else's.)

The thing is, I quite enjoy your lighter fics, be it the "Springer" one
or your "Backwards World" tale, and don't have much problem with some of
your darker-but-original fics.

So, breaking it down into separate parts:

Dan, the moderator, says:

a)  Stay on-topic.  Do at least some real B/W (or B/W/X or B/W/T or
similar, if need be) between the truly OT stuff
b)  Orgyfic isn't as on-topic as you seem to think.
c)  NO Buffy/Dawn.  Period.

Dan, the reader, says:

Ease up on the "sequel" fics.  I know you want to write them, and that's
fine, but you've reached the point where you're being defined by them
and I don't think I'm alone in not liking them.  IMO, varying your
output would improve the reception you get.

Hope I haven't crossed too far over the moderator/lecturer line.

Dan


PSI understand you were trying to say that "To Those Who Wait" wasn't
just a B/D PWP, but to me, this

> again, please read all this in context, I needed >Dawn to bring Buffy
back, this wasn't just 
> 'buffy feels horny so she jumps Dawn's 
> bones', the original story disturbed me so 
> much I needed something special to rescue 
> her

feels like you're claiming you had no choice, you had to write the fic
this way.  Which is patently untrue.  You didn't have to write a
"response" to ttrummer's story (you didn't even have to read it), you
didn't have to make the response an orgyfic, and you didn't have to
involve Dawn in the orgy.  It felt like you were excusing, rather than
explaining, the content that disturbed Rainne, and I found that
disingenuous.



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                     'Choices'

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