Re: Drain Brameged Inc. Bites the Hand That Feeds It

[Mad Hamlet <Mad-Hamlet@xxxxxxx>]

Greetings,

Round #3 There's the Bell! LET'S GET READY TO …rumble is such a harrsh phrase
don't you think? But 'Let's Get Ready to Parcheesi' just doesn't have the same
ring….oh well. Onwards!


Here we have Dizzy Pele.

> > I too am a lurker, I'm not ashamed to admit it and I really don't care if
you don't like it.

Good on yer mate! (Oh I'm going to get a boomerang upside the head I just know
it)

> > I would never send feedback correcting or proofreading someone's work 

You should. The potential benefits to an individual writer and a group at
large is breathtaking. 

> > I've even taken the time to write a few fics of my own.

Really? Can I read them?

> > I wouldn't want anyone sending negative feedback (of the non-constructive
manner)

There is no such thing as non-constructive negative feedback, there are
negative personal attacks. These are called flames. The two items are
different creatures. 

> > or having some poser linguist try and tell me how to write.

The rahAINe in SpAIHAIne, fAlls, MAYinly on the PLAHAine.


> > I agree that feedback is a great motivator to keep writing, but there is no
way that the lack of feedback would keep me from it.

Well said. 

That's not the issue.

Lack of feedback is not what's ailing the B/W shipper community. Lack, period,
full stop, is. 

And now we have….


	
> > Ugh.  Ugh,  Ugh, Ugh.

Danspector! You're alive.

And you have a cough.

> > What the hell are you angling for, here, MH?

It's quite self evident Danspector. 

> > The "freedom" to C&C?

No. 

Which by the way is ironic considering I haven't actually ever had that
freedom here. I have never posted C&C publicly on the BWW, save for the first
time after which I was asked not to, but now that you're saying it's okay I
shall.
 
> > It seems like somehow you're claiming that the list being quiet is
a bad thing, yet that also most of the activity (simple fb, non-great fics)
is also bad.

You are wrong.

Others have mentioned the quality of fanfics and the issue regarding 'simple'
feedback. The rant itself did have a mention of brief messages on the tagboard
over at Wiffy-Dreamverse.com but that's all. 


> > Seems to be a little at odds, IMO.

Most incorrect assumptions are. Yet they happen so often. Sad isn't it?

> > And going all ranty with a list of ways people suck doesn't seem at all
productive.

Oh please.

Nowhere in the rant or any of the follow up responses was it so much as
implied that anyone sucked. Literally perhaps they do, members bedroom habits
or dining habits (I suck spaghetti, yum) are their own business. There was
little to no implication; what there was, was flat out accusation. 

Accusations of laziness, Accusations of shallow interest, accusations of
immediate gratification junkies. And these are dead bang on target.

Let's paint a lovely metaphor shall we?

Two bars.

One is called 'The Kitten Club'. A large room full of comfy chairs, a roaring
fire in a large fire place with a kettle over it whistling merrily and all
over the place are people. People, people, people. People warming themselves
by the fire, others at the bar ordering a round of drinks, a circle of friends
giggling (or chortling; could be men, real men don't giggle) about the latest
goings on. In dark corners people lean over and whisper to each other and
whenever a new face enters through the front door there's a loud cry of their
name and several parties beckoning that person over to join in with the
festivities. (Okay, this group will turn on it's own in a heartbeat if one
goes against the status quo but that's beside this particular point)

Then we have BWW House. It's…nice enough. Comfy looking, chairs, a  bar,
tables that look worn smooth by use but it's oddly quiet. Are there people?
Yes. Yes there are. Lots. But not a lot are doing anything. If fact they all
look kind of expectant, some are staring around, under tables, over other
people heads, others are drumming their fingers on the tabletops. Occasionally
someone, with a frustrated sigh, pushes their chair back and stalks out, other
times someone pokes their head in for a moment. Sometimes they sit down,
sometime they vanish back out the door. Other than that it is very, very
quiet. Save for the constant passing of notes. People are always passing notes
to each other. No one makes eye contact with anyone else, rarely are words
audibly spoken just the ever present, constant passing of notes; a touching of
hands exchanging small pieces of paper.


Now, with this is mind: Which pub, barring again the knowledge the Kittens are
bunch of intolerant zealots, would you rather hang your hat at? And having
your hat hung, where would you yourself rather be?

> > Great, more things I have to do to prove my worth. 

If you say so. 

> > And all the good people are at Wiffy-Dreamverse?  Well, glad to
know I suck.  Thanks.

Y'know Dan, you're a good writer, pretty good speaker and quite cunning. In
this instance though I'm going to have to step on this tactic. 

Do not use Guilt By Association. 

Do not attempt to strengthen your weak argumentative position by painting
'Them' as 'Bad'. WD.com is not me, I am not a representative of it, yes I'm
part of it, yes I have a pretty free hand but the rant, the post, all of it is
solely from me and me alone. It is I who have issues with the B/W shippers
lack of action, it is I alone, who have called them, and thusly you(though you
ARE active so it might not be applicable), to task over it. I do not, however
have issues with B/W shippers themselves because…well…I AM AM one and I like
myself just fine.

If you have issues, they are with me. So a more correct version of your
response would be: And the Good Mad-Hamlet? Well glad to know I suck. Thanks.

To wit I reply: I never said you suck, but you're welcome anyhow. (Note:
Please refrain from calling me 'Good'. I have reputation to uphold)


> > (Okay, so apparently this was originally posted at Wiffy-Dreamverse,
and MH wasn't actually intending to slam those of us here who don't
participate there. 

The motives of the Lecture(Fuck it, let's call it a lecture) were to point out
to all B/W shippers that a more pro-active stance in the community might be
not only preferable, but viable. So, yes, to use  your words I AM Slamming the
BWW. 

'Slamming' is your word though. Mine is 'Accusing'. 

> > And as for the self-proclaimed "master of Words"

And I get to step on you again. Rapture.

This tactic, using ones alias as some sort of grounds for moral outrage is
that of one whose argument, as stated earlier, is weak and they know it.
Another sign of your cunning Dan; taking the names, or appearance of another
and twisting them to bolster your positions since directly confronting the
issues raised in the opposition's argument would be, for you, a suicide run.
Nicely done; easily spotted and, upon that happening, recognisable and
consequently dismissible, but nicely done.

> > Now if you could sound a little less like the Voice of Authority
raking us all over the coals for not coming up to your lofty standards,
it'd be even sweller.

The problem. Danspector is that Alan IS a voice of authority on this subject.
So…there you go. 


'Um excuse me Mr. Police Officer, could you not sound like a police officer?'

'Mr. College Professor could you not sound so professional?'

Yeah, I'm sure that always goes over real well.

And for the record: There's no such word as 'sweller'. 

> > Your didactic tone is just as grinding---So yes, people do
get upset, and yes, this can be counterproductive. 

You're still doing it. You are not confronting the argument but twisting and
needling aspects to suit your own purpose. Thus your own argument is rejected.
In other words: You haven't actually said anything.


> > The entire purpose of these lists is-

To create a community, Danspector. This is the weakness, the Lecture, and
through it I, have raised that issue pertaining to the B/W shipper herein do
not have a true community. Not like the other Shippers, and by God we SHOULD
because we are good enough, and smart enough and I'm suddenly channelling
Stewart Smalley. (But my point stands) 

> > There's nothing wrong with criticism, but the "I know
everything and this is why you're a terrible writer and it's not my fault
if you don't want to hear it, a real writer would welcome the challenge"
tone is not the best way to get things done.

No critic would say 'Terrible writer'. Terrible story maybe, but it would
require draconian circumstances. Make that alteration and the reply is: You
are correct, it is not the best way to get things done; it is the only way. 

Again though this is off topic of the Lecture. The lecture pertained to the
apathetic nature of the B/W shipper community something which some of us would
like to see changed. 

> > In the words of one of those eps that Jin so loftily dismisses as "pretty
much crap": 
other people's opinions may be valid, you know.

This is very very true. However the issue, if you insist on remaining on this
topic, would then have to be what opinions are more valid? The professionals?
Or the 'I just wanna be loved is that so wrong?' (No it's not we'll love you
to death and prove it with honesty) amateur? 

> > Please DON'T act like you're the ultimate authority on writers and
writing, tossing in irrelevant quotes from Shakespeare to suggest that
all the good writers do things your way. 

He's not, and I'm not. Are we acting like we are authorities on this subject?

You betcha.

Are we?

You betcha.

Alan far more than myself.

> > There is NO One True Way to
write, nothing that's pleasing to everybody.


Ah, this argument. I've been waiting for you.

Of course there isn't any 'One True Way'. There are, however, general truths.

Spell checks, pre-readers, first, second, drafts, attention to character,
grounding in realism, focus on perspective, being true to plot…thesse are the
'One true' ways. Yes, I said 'ONE true' wayS. A paradox, yet it exists.

And this is way off topic. You still haven't addressed Alan's argument,
Danspector. His position; you're just railing on what you didn't like about
his 'How' you've been dancing around his 'What'. 


> > It's not hard, and it is constructive, rather than destructive. 

The only destructive work going on is the advocating of the idea that everyone
must only have nice things to say about every thing ever written here. 

> > but—newsflash!—not everyone is you.  A little
awareness of and tolerance for people's differences and differing
psyches wouldn't hurt.

Awareness and tolerance are watchwords for C&C'ing. A good C&C, even chock to
the gills with negative critique is never aimed at the author but the piece
itself. It is the authors' responsibility to retain awareness of that. 

The argument you put forth has it that C&C'ers, other authors, would willingly
stifle themselves for 'The Good of the Many'. 

There ain't no such creature. It's a pipe dream, a trick of smoke and mirrors
used to put down and deny anything that might make others uncomfortable. There
are, basically, two choices: Do you want to be free or do you want to be
safe?

> > Which is the sort of thing
that I try to steer clear of, and which IMO it's all too easy for
"Criticism Is Great! Wimps Shouldn't Write!" crusade to descend into.  

Nice non-sequitur, Danspector. Entertaining, purports a mythology that should
have died long ago and argumentatively worthless but a nice non-sequitur
nonetheless. 

Everyone should write, and everyone can. Everyone should also ask themselves
'Can I be critiqued?' or in simpler terms: What if they don't like it? 

As I wrote in my response to Carol. Three kinds of writers.

1. The ones who don't care and do what they do regardless.

2. The ones who do care because they want to be better.

3. The ones who want to be safe and yet 'out there'. 

> > But I'll let it
stand, because it's late and I just wanted to make my larger
point—there are other motivators besides unbridled negativity.

What points? 

You were polemical, you used twisted terminology to sort your agenda and cited
blasé cart Blanc generalizations as 'proof' of some grand understanding. You
haven't actually said anything.

> > (But, you say, "Dan's responding! It worked!"

We do.

It did.


> > you can get a response by shouting "fire" in a crowded
theater.  Venom for the sake of venom is not productive, even if it
"stimulates" people to respond;

True, true. Good thing that's not what happened isn't it?


>>it hijacks the focus away from where it
ought to be.)

I don't think that closing statement needs any help. It stands just fine all
on it's own glistening in beautiful irony. 


> > I feel is more a "problem" than a solution

Easily fixed.

Write a story, edit a video, make a manip, offer a challenge, craft a poem,
paint a picture, be a guest on JAABAFF, C&C a fic, C&C a manip, C&C a video,
and on and on and on and on and on and….


I remain, as always,
Mad-Hamlet


I was born modest, but it wore off.
                         -Samuel Clement(Mark Twain)


Look upon my work ye mighty and...ah skip it.
http://www.realmoftheshadow.com/madhamlet.htm
                                    -Mad Hamlet


Creator & Editor of Radio: JAABAFF.
The first and only BtVS Femslash Radio Show.
http://www.wiffy-dreamverse.com/




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