Re: "Did Buffy really Love?"

["ebailey140" <ebailey140@xxxxxxx>]

--- In buffywantswillow@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Andy Stoffel <see2go4me@y...>
wrote:
> On Jul 20, 2005, at 6:06 PM, Enriqueta Nuñez wrote:
>
> > Do you think that Buffy ever loved Angel,
>
> It's canon that she did. I don't consider it to be "soul-mate" scale 
> love (Hey! This IS aB/W shipper mailing list/group:-)) more like 'first 
> serious love'. If it had been one of those "forever" kind of things the 
> hard core B/A shippers insist on... she would have followed him when he 
> left Sunnydale - "Hellmouth be damned"

No, she wouldn't have.  She does understand her responsibilities, as
burdened as she sometimes feels by them.  She did, however, know it
was unworkable.  
> [We don't talk about the Parker fiasco..]
>
> > Riley
>
> Riley was her first attempt at a "normal guy" relationship after Angel. 
> She had to have some feelings for him. I can't imagine her sleeping 
> with him otherwise. But "Love"? I don't think so...

She was more in love with the idea of Riley than Riley, himself.  Of
course, there was everyone around her wanting this for her, and
telling her so.  Willow, especially.  Willow, when she was still
trying to be straight, had a very noticable tendency to push Buffy in
the direction of any guy she could find that didn't seem too bad. 
Date Owen! Date Angel! DON'T date Cordelia! (We'll be up to Reptile
Boy in our reviews in a few weeks, and the first Sapphic subtext
actually written into the show, the "ye gods" exchange.)  Willow just
couldn't deal with them both being without guys at the same time, and
made the mistake of really shoving Buffy into Riley's arms.      
> > and Spike
>
> The "Spike thing" is a special case. I don't think she loved him 
> either. But he was the only person who really tried to get close to her 
> after she was resurrected - whatever his reasons - and she responded 
> because he at least gave her SOMETHING to feel.
> (Willow was already on HER downward spiral by the time Buffy/Spike 
> happened... and not noticing much of anything outside her own little 
> manic world.)

And then there were the post-soul complications.  
> > or was it just a cover-up? Was she jealous of Oz and Tara?
>
> That's always a possibility. But she had a part of Willow that neither 
> of them did.

But not the parts we'd LIKE her to have had.  :)
> > Getting into lots of problems with Faith, was that because she liked 
> > her better than Willow?
>
> No. While Willow was visibly jealous of Faith's relationship with Buffy 
> I don't believe it was something that contributed to the trouble Buffy 
> and Faith got into together. Faith was different, which allowed Buffy 
> to express a different side of her own personality - the reckless, 
> careless feeling, not thinking, strictly emotional part of her self..
>
> >  And the problem of her for [Faith] sleeping with Riley was that she 
> > can only touch Faith?
>
> Not sure I understand that... Do you mean - "Was the reason Buffy was 
> upset with Riley sleeping with Faith was because only Buffy was allowed 
> to sleep with Faith?"
>
> Not something I would admit to on a B/W shipper list/group :-). I think 
> she would have been more upset if Faith had slept with Willow. Buffy 
> and Faith had a lot of issues... which I attribute more to sibling 
> rivalry than UST ( except when I'm writing a B/F centric fic of course 
> :-))

Well, Faith's always a sticky issue when it comes to this ship. 
That's because the ONLY thing we can point to in canon where Buffy's
sexuality is genuinely in question is her relationship with Faith
through seasons 3 and 4.  Then, of course, there's Willow's reaction
to it (She was still complaining about the "cleavagy slutbomb" to
Tara, who was too polite to press her about it, just as Joyce never
pressed Buffy about why Faith was ranting like an obsessed
ex-girlfriend in the same episode).  

This was the subtext that was intentionally written into the series. 
If you say that subtext meant nothing, then we're left, in canon, with
a completely hetero Buffy who never has romantic feelings for women,
at all, including a certain redhead.  We're left with a Willow who's
just concerned for a friend, not reacting to another woman intruding
on what's subconciously (at the time, at least)her territory.  

We also know that Willow does get territorial even if she's involved
with someone else, at the time.  

"I'm not the most objective, I know. I kind of have an issue with
Faith sharing my people." - Willow, "Consequences"

Her people, in this case, were Buffy and Xander.  We saw, earlier in
that episode, how Willow reacted, broken hearted and crying, when she
found out Xander had slept with Faith, this WHILE she was supposedly
in love with, and completely devoted to, Oz.  She also happened to be
broken hearted and near tears in the previous episode, "Bad Girls",
over someone Faith was with that had nothing to DO with Xander.  This
is a pattern.  Willow was the EXACT same way in Season 2 with
Cordelia.  She freaked out at Xander when she caught him kissing Cordy
(again, while she was involved with Oz), and had the previously
mentioned "Ye gods" scene with Buffy in Reptile Boy (And Buffy wasn't
even BEING subtexty about Cordy, but Willow REACTED like she was).

Buffy being subtexty with girls in canon, and Willow responding in the
exact same territorial way she did when Xander, who it was long
established Willow was crushing on, had girlfriends does NOT hurt the
Wiffy ship.  It does anything but.  It gives us something in canon to
establish that, yes, women ARE an option for Buffy, and Willow has
more than friendship feelings for her.   

So, yeah, AS a B/W shipper, I think, no, I INSIST, that there was
something going on between Buffy and Faith.  Besides, why should
Willow be the only one going into this with experience?  :)

E  




Willow: "It's a good fight, Buffy, and I want in."
Buffy:  "I kinda love you."
                     'Choices'

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