Spoilers for future eps....If you believe in Murphy's laws, then you know what's coming.....

[Tater <tater@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

I just gotta say, I'm with James on this one. Spike was always capable of
love, it defined his existance. Buffy has been hurt, in about the worst way
possible, by her best friend, and is badly traumatized. At this point, the
only person Buffy can turn to is Spike, because he is the only one that's
not tangled up in her trauma. Most likely, when Buffy recovers, she won't
stay with Spike. She doesn't love him, she just needs him right now.
Willow needs to pull her head out of her ass and smell the black magic. She
had no business raising Buffy from the dead. If she was that concerned
about where Buffy's soul was, she should have used one of many harmless
methods for communication with the dead to call her up and ask her how she
was doing. She went straight for the big magic, without even trying the
smaller magic that would have told her the big magic wasn't needed. She's
riding a power high, and it's corrupting her. Giles is being so harsh
because he can see it happening.


tater (Vegetables of the world unite!)


At 11:02 PM 10/28/01 -0600, you wrote:
> Hey,
> Lurker Coming out of lurkdom because I have to disagree with some of your
character analysis. Now keep in mind I'm a many different shipper groups
other than B\W. Including B\A B\S & B\F. So my view on things might be
different then some on this list.
> Also keep in mind Buffy is my favorite character on the show so my opinion
might be a little skewed. With that said....
> Spike: Angel wannabe....And the sad part is , he is a copy of what Angel
was on Buffy , not of the character he is nowadays on Angel....He has become
someone completly different, a little puppy....Sure, the people were in need
of a male lead for the Slayer to hook up with, and bringing a new one hadn't
worked so well, so they decided to use one that was already there, that
people already liked....That's low....I know that there are lots of people
out there that love Spike, he has become a fav for many, but for me Spike
will always be that guy from eps like School hard, Lover's walk and even The
Yoko factor....not this pathetic loser he seems to be now....I liked that
guy, i once considered him of of Buffy's finest villains, now i just think
of him as a nielsens product....
> In my opinion the overall character hasn't changed all that much. Don't get
me wrong I love spike. But I never considered Spike An
> Arch Villian or Buffy's greatest enemy. Lets face it Spike & Dru were
Brought on as Red Herrings In season two. For the REAL BIG BAD Angelus. I
mean other than School Hard What has he done to oppose Buffy. I mean
everything else he did was either for or because of Dru. Let's see What's My
Line was about getting th cure for Dru. The Judge was for Dru. As we have
seen on many occasions he is capable of caring. As twisted as the
relationship was he loved Dru. In Fool For Love. witch showed the origin of
Spike. We saw that William Blood was a very lonely man He wanted love. He
had alot of love in him. But he was constantly laughed at and rejected. when
he was turned It was like the sensiive kid in school whose always been
picked on. And suddenly He's Given the power to pick back. But he never lost
the ability to love. And As we have seen on both Buffy & Angel many times
Demons can be good.
> Dawn : Humm, the most important thing in Buffy's life was just put
aside.....Move over girl, it's Spike season's now....Amazing, last season
Buffy dropped her friends and went for her sister, this season she drops the
sister and goes for the vamp....Why those people still want to be around her
is beyond me...Still, her Afterlife behavior wasn't the best...I mean, we're
talking about the girl that once tried to bring a zombie Joyce back to life
....Oh, and we can't forget, Willow may have showed the book, but Spike was
the one who took her there....Now they're all self-righteous...Funny
that....Plus, when the whole Willow thing goes down, she'll
> completely forget that Will took care of her during the summer her sister
was kind of dead...
> Now this I don't get. Your angry her Mother's Illness & Dawn's saftey
took priority over everything else in Buffy's life last year.
> OH WHAT A BITCH! I mean how Dare she love her mother & sister more than
her her friends WHAT NERVE! And now to make matters worse she's able to talk
to Spike. What a slut!
> Giles: The talk with Buffy was fantastic, very fatherly...I mean, he
hasn't done much, he IS leaving after all, not much to do except say
goodbye, but he still managed to piss me off....Okay, question to everyone
watching Bargaining ...did you see that scene from Flooded coming ? Cause i
really didn't...Their goodbye in the first two eps was so heartfelt, so
touching....She was the last one he hugged, the one with the long goodbye,
and still....I expected more of their relationship....I expected more of
him....He thought that calling her names would help her in anyway ? Is that
it ? Cause he really should know better.....I'm not saying that he wasn't
right in his words, but the way he said it....
> And he expected a WHOLE lot more from Willow. He expected her to be alot
more responseable. He of all people knows the cost of Black Magic first
hand. He's got blood on his hands because of it. He had every right to say
everything he said to her. She is a rank ametour. When comes to the forces
of magic.
> Buffy : I hate her....I mean it...I know everyone is going around saying
bad things about Willow and all, but she is the one that really pissed me of
so far....I mean, she was in heaven, that's good, but not everything was
great.....Was i the only one that heard what those demons said they would do
to the girls when she arrived ? Was i the only one that saw they destroying
the town ? Or Buffybot , for that matter ? I mean, the only thing standing
between Sunnydale and destruction up to that moment was the robot, they all
knew that ( cemetery scene , anyone) and now the bot had been
destroyed...How well can you be in a situaton like that ....Yeah, she was in
heaven, but her friends, her so called family was about to enter hell, and
it was her place to take them out of it....That's what heroes do...They put
other people's life and happiness before their own, they sacrifice
themselves....SHE is the hero, they are the ones that help her, not the
other way...SHE has the abilities, they only have their hearts...I know that
she doesn't have to be happy, but come on....Besides, Willow took her out of
hell, that may not have been the place she was in, but that was the place
their friends thought she was....When they slept they didn't imagine her in
a heavenly kind of place, they didn't imagine her being happy, they pictured
her in hell, being tortured by hundreds of demons...And after five years in
the mouth of hell, who wouldn't ? And what's this whole "the only person i
can stand to be around is a neutered vampire "thing ? Why ? Because he
wasn't envoloved ? Well, neither were Dawn nor Giles ...Because he loves her
and all? Well, last i heard, they all did...Because he also died and came
back in a coffin ? Well, then i think she should become friends with the
entire vamp population of Sunnydale....They all went trhough that, and guess
what ? They were dead...The coffin thing , not that scary when you don't
need the air, the being dead thing ? She spent months dead, he spent
hours...Or maybe he was in heaven too, but we never found out....Maybe that
is it...Let's be realistic here...If you want her to boink Spike then let
her, but to try to pull the "oh, because they have so much in common " is
just going too far....
> Ok lets see she's in heaven. Her Job Is done her destiny fulfilled. And
Then BAM your in your coffin struggeling for breath. Struggling to claw your
way out. No thats not trauma. And Then when you do get out you find a place
that looks & sounds like hell. You see yourself torn in two by demons on
motercycles. You've come back from the dead but you think you have been to
hell. When you do finally except that you are back wether you like it or
not. You find out that it was your "friends". that did this too you. Because
they thought you. THE CHOSEN WARRIOR OF THE POWERS THAT BE WAS IN HELL! As
if the powers would ever allow the soul of their slayer to be tortured in
hell for eternity. I DON"T THINK SO! And you can't tell your friends the
amout of pain they have caused you because it would hurt them. And you Can't
tell Giles Because you heard the argument he had with Wilow about the spell
And even you no how angry he would if he knew the damage that was done too
you. You can't talk to Dawn because she is your LITTLE SISTER. And it's ot
right to put that kind of burden on her. And on top of everything else.
Willow wants your undying gratitude for "SAVING" you from hell. And everyone
else wants you to be happy go lucky Buffy. Basically they all want something
from her. And she's struggling to give everyone what they want from her. But
Spike Isn't asking anything from her. He dosen't have expectaions of her. As
he made clear during his scene with her in the gift. He has no illusions
anymore when it comes to his relationship with her. So yes now there is a
real friendship developing between them. Because she needs to talk. And he
is willing to listen.
> Willow: Can i just say , i don't have any opinion really formed on her so
far....I mean, i didn't really like her final words for Giles during the
kitchen scene, but still.....It's pretty clear her character is going to
change quite a lot this year, and not in a good way, but I think everyone in
here already figured she is going to be one of the big bads this season, if
not THE big bad, and i can't help feeling sorry for that....No, i'm not
going to start a discussion about how much better Willow was in the previous
seasons mainly because i still think of her as that same character that she
was back in the first three seasons (unlike Spike, that i think is another
character played by the same actor and with the same name) ...she has
changed, not always for the best, but changed nonetheless...But despite all
these changes she still managed to retain a smal part of that original
Willow, that part that made me fall in love with the character in the first
palce....And that's why i'm having a really hard time buying the evil Willow
arc....Not only because of what it will do to B/W , not only because of what
it will do to the group, but what it will do to the character herself...I
know there are lot of people that have already defined Willow as bad after
her actions this season, but so far i just don't see it....I mean, she
killed Bambi's mother: unless you're a vegetarian, you shouldn't talk....She
used a dark spell to bring Buffy back : if you looked at her eyes while she
tried to convince Xander you'd see that she REALLY believed that her friend
was suffering in hell...She wanted some kind of recognition : she is human,
to want some part of recognation on a job well done is part of our
nature...Plus, she just saved the soul of that very person that saved her
life hundreds of times before, she wanted Buffy to see that, wanted Buffy to
see that , given the chance, she would do anything for the slayer too....Her
talk with Giles, she needed approval and instead got hurful words, she
wanted him to be happy for her gronwt and he goes and says that, so she goes
and responds in kind...Despite of it all , Willow still thought she was
doing the right thing, and a part of her was....But she was not
dark....never was, but they're taking her down that path...Not now, but once
she realizes that everybody turned their back on her she will...And the
thing is, by the end of the day Buffy will be the main responsible for
that...It was pretty clear in the training room scene that Buffy was the
only one that would have the power to make Willow realize where she is
going, and it was also clear that the slayer won't make any effort, at least
not until it's too late, i mean, as long as she can blame someone for her
condition right now, she's gonna grab onto that, and Willow is the chosen
one this time...Because of that Willow will end up walking down a road that
has no way back , at least not an easy one, she'll change everything we ever
knew about her character....I mean, being reckless is one thing, being evil
is quite another....And by the end end of the day everything will have
changed, she may even go back to the good guys, but her character will be
tainted forever...
> The reason people are upset about the deer. Is because she violated
wiccan beliefs. Wicca is about respecting & honoring nature.
> Wicca would NEVER call for a blood sacrifice. So by doing that she has
willingly gone against the goddess she claims to worship. What willow has
yet to learn is Just because you can do a thing doesn't mean you should.
There is know such thing as doing the wrong thing for the right reason.
You're actions have consequences And Will has a price to pay karmacaly for
bringing
> back from the dead. Against the laws of nature that all wiccans uphold.
>
> Just my opinion,
> James