Re: SPOILER: "Angel" vs. "Buffy"

["ebailey140" <ebailey140@xxxxxxx>]

--- In buffywantswillow@y..., danspector@w... wrote:
> Spoiler Space still necessary for "Tomorrow"
> 
> but
> 
> I
> 
> must
> 
> admit
> 
> this 
> 
> gets
> 
> to
> 
> be
> 
> a
> 
> grind
> 
> 
> I'm frankly lacking patience with the Spike-redemptionista 
shibboleth
> that Giles's "higher purpose" line in "The I in Team" means that 
Spikey
> has a destiny and therefore it's perfectly all right for him to go
> around raping Buffy and such.

No one's said that was OK. Despite his attempts to be the romantic 
chivilric knight, he couldn't get there because he was a soulless 
vampire. He realized he needed to be whole, but didn't know what 
that really required (Being soulless, how WOULD he know?).  
> 
> A cursory glance at the scene reveals that Giles has just very
> reluctantly parted with $300 (the debt he owes Spike from "A New 
Man")
> and is desperate to salvage something from the situation. Since he
> can't stake Spike, because Marsters has a contract (and, btw, for no
> other logical reason), he tries to ensure Spike's assistance and 
butters
> him up in the process. (Spike himself sees it's just a line of 
crap Mr.
> Skinflint ex-Watcher is trying on so he won't have to pay for 
Spike's
> aid in the future, since paying off this debt has hurt him so.)
> 
> Giles himself clearly doesn't believe his own malarkey, since later 
in
> the same ep, he gleefully holds Spike up for the repayment of the 
$300,
> rather than immediately remove the Initiative tracer. If Spike's
> continued existence actually seemed to have any merit for Giles, he
> never would have risked it for a few bucks.
> 
> It's a **joke**, nothing more. Just the set-up for a punchline.  
Giles
> could have told Spike he had the most beautiful blue eyes he'd ever
> seen, and it wouldn't have meant anything, either. David Fury was
> trying to unsnarl a main arc, and move the W/T subplot along; he 
wasn't
> burying four-year-long portents in throwaway jokes.

The plan to further evolve, and ultimately redeem, Spike was pretty 
obviously on Joss's mind at that point. He had reached a point where 
he couldn't go back to being the Big Bad.  
> 
> There never was a grand plan for Spike. He was supposed to die in
> "What's My Line, Part 2", but Whedon kept him around so that the
> "Angelus at home" scenes in later Season 2 would have some conflict.
> (And they needed those scenes so Boreanaz could have something to do
> over the last 9 eps besides stalk Buffy.) 

They also realized the character had more potential than what was 
originally planned.  

> They brought him back because
> they needed fresh eye candy, and at this point, ME was desperately
> trying to rescue the Season 4 arc because they'd unexpectedly lost
> Lindsay Crouse. 

They'd signed JM for two seasons after S3 ended. He was a regular 
long before they knew they'd lose Crouse. Sorry, but you're letting 
your prejudices get in the way of facts.  

> The eps were a mess--"Doomed" was thrown together by
> three writers over a weekend, for example. They had no real 
concept on
> why Spike was on the show at that point, bouncing from "we need him 
for
> info on the Initiative" ("Pangs") to "he can only fight demons and 
he
> likes it" ("Doomed") to "the demons are against him and he has 
nowhere
> else to go" ("Goodbye, Iowa") until they finally decided to head for
> Spuffyville in Season 5. It. Doesn't. Mean. Anything. Honest.

Sorry it bothers you, but obviously Joss sees more in the character 
than you do. Sure, they weren't thinking in those terms when he was 
first introduced, but it's safe to say they weren't 
thinking "powerful lesbian witch" when they introduced Willow, 
either.  
> 
> And I don't for a minute mean that Cordelia deserves Hell or that 
she's
> unforgiveable. I just mean that sending her there instead of 
Heavenward
> would
> 
> a) rescue us from the idea that she's a "higher being", which she
> surely ain't (if anything, her character has backslid 
since "Birthday"),
> and 
> 
> b) reinforce the concept that demons are evil, sneaky, lying 
bastards,
> which I know seems to be forgotten these days, but I still have 
hopes...
> 
> Dan
> 
> holding out for the existence of Evil, otherwise Good kind of lacks 
a
> purpose...

There are grey areas, though. That's been long established. We've 
had demons that serve the PTB, established since Becoming. The demon 
that restored Spike's soul would seem to be one.

E