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Re: Re: Humans, demons, and jurisdiction
Why does everyone think that what Willow did was evil? Killing scum like
Warren should be considered an act in the interest of society. For as long
as the world has turned there has been a simple rule: an eye for an eye, a
life for a like. If you deprive someone of their life the victim's loved
ones should be allowed to do what they want with you.
Steven
-------Original Message-------
From: buffywantswillow@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Thursday, May 23, 2002 04:37:09 PM
To: buffywantswillow@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Humans, demons, and jurisdiction
--- In buffywantswillow@y..., Jason Rune <winter_herald@y...> wrote:
> Something's been bugging me lately. Actually, a lot
> of things have been bugging me lately, but this one
> gets its own post.
>
> So, Buffy considers herself to have jurisdiction and a
> license to kill in the demon world, but no such thing
> among humans. Right? That's what the conversation in
> "Villains" would seem to indicate.
>
> Unfortunately, the borders aren't all nice and
> straight...
>
> The Mayor. He became a demon, but before that he was
> a souped-up human with (probably) dozens of demonic
> pacts and bargains.
The Mayor was over a hundred years old, and was only retaining his human
form because of demonic influence. I don't see him as any different than
the villain of "The Puppet Show" (trying to keep a little mystery for anyone
who hasn't bought their Season 1 discs yet). Or, for that matter, a vampire
He wsn't human, and couldn't (and shouldn't) be brought to human justice.
Plus he no longer had a soul ("Lovers Walk"). Not a problem.
> The Knights of Byzantium. Buffy killed at least a few
> of them. Of course, it was immediate self-defense
> against armed opponents, and even normal citizens can
> kill in self-defense against armed opponents in most
> places I know of.
Yeah, actually that sucks. Buffy didn't need to kill them. She'd already
defeated the Knights' three best fighters, simultaneously, unarmed, in
Checkpoint". At no point in "Spiral" was she facing more than three, but as
someone posted on the Kitten Board, DeKnight wanted the "cum shot" of Buffy
axing the Knight in the chest. Really, that's a good argument for when the
rot set in on the show.
When asked why Buffy was now killing humans fighting for a noble cause when
she didn't have to, DeKnight said something about, you guessed it, "growing
up." So to DeKnight, questionable killings=growing up. Man apparently
thinks he writes for "The Sopranos" and Buffy had to "make her bones".
It's really quite arguable that the suck came to "Buffy" when Joss hired
DeKnight, his new fair-haired boy. His departure from the staff next year
may be the show's only hope (and, conversely, the death of "Angel").
> Rack. If, theoretically, Buffy were in a position to
> kill Rack, would she have the justification? I think
> he's at least ostensibly human, but do you really
> think that any human system of jurisdiction could
> touch him? By genetics he may be human, but by his
> actions and affiliations (specifically, his extreme
> usage of dark magics) he seems to have declared
> membership in the demon community. There's a reason
> only demons (and his junkies) can find his lair.
Rack may be beyond the jurisdiction of the police, but as a souled human, he
shouldn't be killed unless there is no other way (having a coven strip him
of magickal ability, for example, as proposed for Willow) to stop him from
harming others. Just because Rack is Buffy's to punish doesn't mean the
punishment must be death.
> Warren. He's human, and he's not a black magician
> like Rack. He's a gadgeteer, and technology is a part
> of human society (though his tech was almost magically
> advanced in some cases.) What supernatural forces he
> used, he got from outside sources, and they had run
> out by the time Willow had him. So I can't see any
> way out of this one, really. Sorry, Willow.
Nope. Tied up in the trees Warren had no power, and no hope of escaping a
life sentence (and possibly the death penalty). He committed a human crime,
and there were two eyewitnesses (Buffy and Xander) who knew him personally
and could identify him. His motive for the crime (Buffy foiling the armored
car robbery) occured in front of multiple witnesses, including his
co-conspirator, Jonathan, who would easily turn state's evidence. His
challenge to Buffy (after punching out Xander) was made in front of a club
full of witnesses. Jonathan can pin Katrina's murder on him (remember, it
happened in Andrew's basement, and the physical evidence [the champagne
bottle, Katrina's blood] is probably still there because they abandoned that
Lair immediately afterwards).
Nope, the only reason for Willow to kill Warren (and the only reason for
Warren to kill Tara) was so Willow could go EEEVIL. Idiot-plotting of the
highest degree.
> The way the show is going,
> humans and demons don't seem *quite* so far removed
> from each other as some would like to think.
Not Joss changing the paradigms, or challenging our preconceptions, as the
Spikeophiles keep claiming to excuse Slimy's behavior. Just hack writers
getting sloppy and not thinking, as the show sinks, slowly, slowly, in the
West...
Dan
rhymes with "a-twitter"
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<DIV>Why does everyone think that what Willow did was evil? Killing scum
like Warren should be considered an act in the interest of society. For as
long as the world has turned there has been a simple rule: an eye foran
eye, a life for a like. If you deprive someone of their life the victim's
loved ones should be allowed to do what they want with you.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Steven</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV id=IncrediOriginalMessage><I>-------Original Message-------</I></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV id=receivestrings>
<DIV dir=ltr style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt" <i><B>From:</B></I> <A
href="mailto:buffywantswillow@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx";>buffywantswillow@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx</A></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt" <i><B>Date:</B></I> Thursday, May 23,
2002 04:37:09 PM</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt" <i><B>To:</B></I> <A
href="mailto:buffywantswillow@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx";>buffywantswillow@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx</A></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt" <i><B>Subject:</B></I>
::BuffyWantsWillow:: Re: Humans, demons, and jurisdiction</DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><TT>--- In buffywantswillow@y..., Jason Rune
<winter_herald@y...> wrote:<BR>> Something's been bugging me
lately. Actually, a lot<BR>> of things have been bugging me
lately, but this one<BR>> gets its own post.<BR>> <BR>> So, Buffy
considers herself to have jurisdiction and a<BR>> license to kill in
the demon world, but no such thing<BR>> among humans.
Right? That's what the conversation in<BR>> "Villains" wouldseem
to indicate.<BR>> <BR>> Unfortunately, the borders aren't all nice
and<BR>> straight...<BR>> <BR>> The Mayor. He became a
demon, but before that he was<BR>> a souped-up human with (probably)
dozens of demonic<BR>> pacts and bargains.<BR><BR>The Mayor was over a
hundred years old, and was only retaining his human form because of
demonic influence. I don't see him as any different than the villain
of "The Puppet Show" (trying to keep a little mystery for anyone who
hasn't bought their Season 1 discs yet). Or, for that matter, a
vampire. He wsn't human, and couldn't (and shouldn't) be brought to
human justice.<BR><BR>Plus he no longer had a soul ("Lovers Walk").
Not a problem.<BR><BR><BR>> The Knights of Byzantium. Buffy
killed at least a few<BR>> of them. Of course, it was immediate
self-defense<BR>> against armed opponents, and even normal citizens
can<BR>> kill in self-defense against armed opponents in most<BR>>
places I know of. <BR><BR>Yeah, actually that sucks. Buffy
didn't need to kill them. She'd already defeated the Knights' three
best fighters, simultaneously, unarmed, in "Checkpoint". At no point
in "Spiral" was she facing more than three, but as someone posted on the
Kitten Board, DeKnight wanted the "cum shot" of Buffy axing the Knight in
the chest. Really, that's a good argument for when the rot set in on
the show.<BR><BR>When asked why Buffy was now killing humans fightingfor
a noble cause when she didn't have to, DeKnight said something about,you
guessed it, "growing up." So to DeKnight, questionable
killings=growing up. Man apparently thinks he writes for "The
Sopranos" and Buffy had to "make her bones".<BR><BR>It's really quite
arguable that the suck came to "Buffy" when Joss hired DeKnight, his new
fair-haired boy. His departure from the staff next year may be the
show's only hope (and, conversely, the death of "Angel").<BR><BR>>
Rack. If, theoretically, Buffy were in a position to<BR>> kill
Rack, would she have the justification? I think<BR>> he's at
least ostensibly human, but do you really<BR>> think that any human
system of jurisdiction could<BR>> touch him? By genetics he may
be human, but by his<BR>> actions and affiliations (specifically, his
extreme<BR>> usage of dark magics) he seems to have declared<BR>>
membership in the demon community. There's a reason<BR>> only
demons (and his junkies) can find his lair.<BR><BR>Rack may be beyondthe
jurisdiction of the police, but as a souled human, he shouldn't be killed
unless there is no other way (having a coven strip him of magickal
ability, for example, as proposed for Willow) to stop him from harming
others. Just because Rack is Buffy's to punish doesn't mean the
punishment must be death.<BR><BR>> Warren. He's human, and he's
not a black magician<BR>> like Rack. He's a gadgeteer, and
technology is a part<BR>> of human society (though his tech was almost
magically<BR>> advanced in some cases.) What supernatural forces
he<BR>> used, he got from outside sources, and they had run<BR>> out
by the time Willow had him. So I can't see any<BR>> way out of
this one, really. Sorry, Willow.<BR><BR>Nope. Tied up in the
trees Warren had no power, and no hope of escaping a life sentence (and
possibly the death penalty). He committed a human crime, and there
were two eyewitnesses (Buffy and Xander) who knew him personally and could
identify him. His motive for the crime (Buffy foiling the armored
car robbery) occured in front of multiple witnesses, including his
co-conspirator, Jonathan, who would easily turn state's evidence.
His challenge to Buffy (after punching out Xander) was made in front of a
club full of witnesses. Jonathan can pin Katrina's murder on him
(remember, it happened in Andrew's basement, and the physical evidence
[the champagne bottle, Katrina's blood] is probably still there because
they abandoned that Lair immediately afterwards).<BR><BR>Nope, the only
reason for Willow to kill Warren (and the only reason for Warren to kill
Tara) was so Willow could go EEEVIL. Idiot-plotting of the highest
degree.<BR><BR>> The way the show is going,<BR>> humans and demons
don't seem *quite* so far removed<BR>> from each other as some would
like to think. <BR><BR>Not Joss changing the paradigms, or
challenging our preconceptions, as the Spikeophiles keep claiming to
excuse Slimy's behavior. Just hack writers getting sloppy and not
thinking, as the show sinks, slowly, slowly, in the
West...<BR><BR>Dan<BR><BR>rhymes with "a-twitter"<BR><BR><BR></TT><BR><BR><TT>Community
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