Re: Re: Joss has NO point - my rant

[Nathan Campbell <NathanCampbell@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

SPOILERS (DISCUSSION, S6)






















All very good points. I agree with a lot of that, though I've
certainly not been exceedingly happy about the way things have turned
out. My main gripe, really, is that I think Spike is useful to the
show as a villain or not at all. MAYBE something good will come of the
William thing, but I have serious doubts. Anyways, I exaggerated
earlier when I said I would in the future watch only for purposes of
information. I was stressed and irrational. I will watch S7 in hope
that it will be good for at least one of my preferred 'ships.

Nathan Campbell
NathanCampbell@xxxxxxxxxxxx

When sun sprays the earth
with straight-falling flames,
a cricket rubs his wings,
scraping up thin sweet song.
-Sappho


mudrat_26 wrote:



Thank the gods!! Finally someone else has expressed the thoughts that 
have been racing through my head recently!!

I'm going to say a few things that won't sit well with some of the 
regulars, but Dan the Man is always encouraging us to express our 
opinions, so here's mine.  I've done all of you the courtesy of 
patiently reading your posts and hearing your opinions - even if I 
disagree with them, because I firmly believe that everyone is 
entitled to their opinion - so I'd appreciate it if you'd hear me out 
before deleting this.

I joined this group because I am dead keen on B/W as a couple.  I've 
read fic on quite a few sites, and joined up here with the intention 
of finding more.  I should mention, to my own mind I never expect to 
see these two as a couple on screen - but the world of fic is an 
entirely different kettle of teacups.

If I wanted to see discussion about each episode, I would have joined 
some of the other regular Buffy groups - I came here to find fic.  
Granted I've found a fair bit (I actually went back and read a fair 
few of the earlier posts - up to about 1800).  Obviously that's a 
little beside the point, so let's move on.

Unfortunately, I've also heard lots of people expressing mostly 
negative thoughts (I'm being nice and diplomatic here) about the 
show, ME, Joss and Marti, writers, etc.  To the point where I'm 
actually thinking about not bothering with this group anymore.  
Before you take offence, go back and read a few of those earlier 
posts (even if you were one of the posters) - the atmosphere was 
entirely different.

So here are my thoughts, in no particular order:

- Taking BtVS for granted:  When the Seven Network here in Australia 
got the first series of Buffy, they screened it over the Xmas/Summer 
period - the testing ground for new series on Oz TV - at 7.30pm on 
Monday nights.  Up against Friends - then the highest rating show in 
the country.  When it didn't rate particularly well, they tried to 
cancel it - fans objected, so it's now been relegated to the Home Of 
Cult TV - the 10.30pm timeslot (along with any Star Trek, Roswell, 
Angel, etc).  Thank god - it doesn't get badly edited (ask the UK 
fans about Bargaining and Villains - I'll never complain about it 
being on that late again).  Still, every year we face the threat that 
Seven may simply not bother with the next series.  We wait with bated 
breath til the end of February, hoping that we'll see it advertised 
in TV guides.  We're just thankful here that we get to see such an 
awesome show, that is so different to all the other mundane, bland 
crap out there.

- Tara's death: I've heard lots of complaints, but no compliments.  
Stand back and look at the bigger picture, people.  Joss and Co have 
created a fictional character that people have grown to love - so 
much so that when that fictionaL character dies, people actually 
grieve.  Now that's some pretty damn awesome writing, if you ask me. 
As for her death being "pointless" - the major theme this season has 
been "reality".  Things happen in real life.  People die, for no good 
reason.  It can't be justified, it can't be fixed, there's no disease 
you can blame.  It just is.  And it makes you angry.  If anything, 
Tara's death getting such a reaction from fans just proves how good 
the writers on this show are.

- that damn bullet: I've still not seen the episode, but I know a 
little about firearms, and I remember high school science, so there 
are a couple of things that people might want to take into account. 
Firstly (unless my science teacher lied and was inept), I'm pretty 
sure that glass, due to the nature of it's componenets, is never 
actually completely solid.  Add to this the fact that when a bullet 
passes through something (particularly something like glass), it's 
velocity and trajectory will change slightly - more so as the angle 
becomes more acute.  Something to think about.

- the gay thing:  OK, this really fires me up.  The fact that Willow 
and Tara are gay is not what defines either character.  Everybody 
keeps saying that Joss, etc are insinuating certain things by Tara's 
death - gay people don't matter, gay people are evil, gay = bad.  I 
even read that the character's death was an insult to the gay 
community.  What a load of shite.  

Expressing these views indicates that Willow and Tara's only defining 
characteristic is that they are gay.  I view them as a much more 
rounded characters than that, and I think it's an insult to the 
characters to limit your perception of them simply to their 
sexuality.  And, for the record, I am gay, so I know that of which I 
speak.  Gay people have fought for years for equal rights, and not to 
be treated any differently to everyone else.  Expecting that a 
character has some sort of safeguard against being killed because 
they're gay, or that a character shouldn't be killed just because 
they're gay, is insulting - it's offering special treatment where 
none is expected or wanted.  The same goes for Willow 
turning "evil".  This hasn't happened because she's gay.  This has 
happened because she's been fighting an addiction, Tara (the centre 
of her world) helped her fight that addiction, and just when it 
seemed like she had a handle on things, the centre of her world is 
ripped away from her.  She experienced a major trauma, and couldn't 
handle it.  Once you're an addict, you're always an addict - and a 
stressful situation will be the first thing to tempt you.  Add anger 
to that and....well, evil Willow.  Gay doesn't even come into it, 
really.

- story arcs:  Most of what I've read on various posting boards since 
Season 4 has been negative.  People didn't like the Initiative.  They 
didn't like Glory.  They don't like what's happened this season.  
Fair enough - drama is one of the arts, and art is open to the 
interpretation of the individual.  But the bottom line - if you don't 
like it, don't watch it.  Personally, I love it.  The Initiative 
weren't my favourite, but there were some key incidents in this 
season which have had repercussions in S5 and S6.  Loved Glory.  
Bitchy S1 Cordelia meets Minerva Mayflower (Hudson Hawk).  

Two words - character development.  As I've stated before, the 
Scoobys are growing up.  For me, the years between 18-22 were the 
most dramatic and life-changing that I've experienced - that's what 
these characters are going through.  They're not 16 any more.  People 
change - and if they didn't, we'd be complaining about that.  If the 
S4-6 were the same as S3, I would have stopped watching a long time 
ago, 'cos it's be dead boring. BtVS has moved from being a teen 
program to a more adult oriented program - and I take it a lot more 
seriously for doing so.  I disagree with the whole S6 reset idea - it 
is what it is, leave it be.  

- Amber Benson in the credits:  Joss was asked a couple of years ago 
at a convention in the UK whether or not Amber would be added to the 
opening credits for S5 - he flat out said no, and that Tara was to 
remain a recurring character.  All those upset about the fact that 
Tara was killed - consider that she was never meant to be a permanent 
character anyway.  As for it being "tacky" that Amber only appeared 
in the credits for one episode - it's been done before, and it's seen 
in the industry as a token of respect for the actor.  Don't knock it -
I'm sure Amber appreciated it.

That's all I can think of for now - no doubt I'll remember more 
later, but I don't have the time right now.

Any constructive comments - I'm sure others on the list will welcome 
debate.  If you want to fire up, feel free to e-mail me directly at 
mudrat_26@xxxxxxxxx  - I'm happy to debate any point, and also 
because I don't believe we should inflict that on everybody.  Be 
warned though - if I'm verbally attacked for simply holding these 
opinions, I'll bark back.  And I won't pull any punches.

Thanks for reading,
mudrat



--- In buffywantswillow@y..., "ebailey140" <ebailey140@a...> wrote:
> --- In buffywantswillow@y..., danspector@w... wrote:
> > E,
> > 
> > One, I don't "hate the series".  Not liking your beloved Heroic 
> Rapist
> > or that the series has lost all meaning does not translate 
to "hate 
> the
> > series".
> 
> What ARE you going on about?!!  "Beloved rapist"?!!!  Do you really 
> not see the problem, here?  Does there being complex characters on 
> the show that people find interesting that don't happen to be Buffy 
> or Willow really bother you, that much? 
> 
> The show seems to have driven you into an all consuming rage, 
judging 
> from your posts.  Your points might come across more if you'd tone 
> down the hyperbole.  I take your posts as indicating hating the 
show 
> with a fiery vengeance because that is how you are presenting them.
> 
> So, you not liking the show = "the series has lost all meaning"?  
How 
> so?  Being soulless, and out of touch with your humanity, makes you 
> do bad things, but regaining it allows for redemption, goes against 
> what the series is about?  Well, then, I suppose she shouldn't have 
> forgiven Angel.  
> 
> Of course, if Spike's irredeemable even though he now HAS his soul, 
> doesn't that mean Buffy can never forgive the friend who just tried 
> to murder her and everybody else, even though that friend has just 
> regained HER humanity?  What was that about consistency, again?    
> > 
> > Two,  nowhere do I say Joss is homophobic.  I say that his current
> > treatment of gay characters is forced and unfair and reinforces 
the
> > gay-bashers' beliefs, and that Mr.
> > Look-How-Award-Winningly-Progressive-I-Am Whedon should have known
> > better and should be ashamed, and that his current "equal 
treatment"
> > story is bullshit.
> 
> How so?  Tara's hardly the first character in the show to die at 
the 
> hands of a bad guy.  That goes back to the very first episode.  
> Remember Jesse, close frind of both Xander and Willow?  What, 
> exactly, is reinforcing gay bashers beliefs?  What does Willow's 
> sexual orientation have to do with grief, rage, and addiction?  
> Suppose Willow's sweet, sensitive, magical girlfriend had been a 
> sweet, sensitive, magical boyfriend?  What DIFFERENCE would it have 
> made?
> > 
> > Joss has been blind to his implications (in ways he had no excuse 
> for
> > being), insensitive to his audience, too immature to admit that he
> > goofed, too lacking in character to apologize for months of "Tara 
> isn't
> > going anywhere" lies, and sadly mealy-mouthed in trying to weasel 
> his
> > way out of it.  Also he told a cliched story very poorly (this in 
> part
> > due to the failures of DeKnight, Noxon, and Fury, as well). 
> 
> Joss's viewpoint on the subject of killing a major character, and 
not 
> letting that character's sexual orientation enter into it, is 
> different than yours.  Just because you disagree with him doesn't 
> automatically mean he's "blind to his implications", "insensitive 
to 
> his audience", "immature", "lacking in character", "sadly mealy-
> mouthed", or that he's trying to "weasel his way out of it".  It 
just 
> means that YOU, PERSONALLY, DIDN'T LIKE IT.  And no, he has nothing 
> to apologize for. 
> 
> Take a look at the terms you're using.  Think about it.  Those are 
> personal attacks on Whedon.  They can't be interpreted as anything 
> else.  But then, that "beloved, heroic, rapist" bit was a personal 
> attack on every fan of the show who thinks Spike can be redeemed, 
> especially now that he has his soul.  
> 
> My only gripe was Buffy's role, or lack of one.  I suppose, on one 
> level, it was right that the climactic moment be between Willow and 
> Xander, but it didn't give me the sort of emotional punch that the 
> climax of Becoming 2 or Graduation 1 did.  I guess I'm a little too 
> Buffy-centric, there, but this IS her show, and all.  I guess she 
> can't take down her loved ones when they've gone over the edge 
EVERY 
> time, and I guess she's had enough angst over the last two years, 
so 
> needed to finish the season feeling positive.  And, it saved Willow 
> having to spend the Summer in a demon dimension (These things NEVER 
> go well for Buffy), and surprising Buffy in the first episode of 
next 
> season by dropping naked from a portal into her bedroom.  Not that 
> Willow ending up naked in Buffy's bedroom would be a bad thing, far 
> from it.  It should be under more pleasant circumstances, 
> though  :)     
> 
> E



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