Shipping at length, wee small spoiler: lessons

["cab_moore" <cab_moore@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Seem to have been sticking to my usual tactic of launching a salvo 
and then going off line.

> An excellent concept, CA! And bonus props for still putting in the
> Spoiler Space down below, since we need to keep the Spoiler content 
away
> from those who read our non-Spoiler spec.
> 
Positive reinforcement, I remember that from intro to educational 
psychology; still works tho :)

> was telling, not showing. And anyway, he seemed more emotionally
> attached to singing Riley's praises than Anya's...)

Xander/Riley Hmmm....
....Ewww Captain cardboard seems to leave me cold on all bases; he 
wasn't too bad with Sam .

> 
> And then there's the little fact that she tried to murder him about 
a
> dozen times in "Entropy". I think that's pretty much a relationship

"Love is pain", [ducks flying objects]

> killer, even if we then hadn't had to listen to Anya spend the rest 
of
> the year screeching that **he** was emotionally immature.  

Well, he's a man, of course he has the emotional IQ of a tadpole. 
(but if anyone should know that it's Anya ;)
At least he seems to have held together well over summer.

> seeing Xander crawl back to her would be very unappealing. I'd 
rather
> see Willow fight off B/X subtext to win Buffy's heart than have to 

I don't want a lot of crawl either; If he has to crawl then it means 
she doesn't understand why he did it - not a good foundation for an 
new start.
(pretend not to see 'speciest' passage)

Since I don't see X/An as as a problem (at least, so long as she 
gets "sacked" soon), it's not a sacrifice, just convenient.

> And, since B/W is still kind of low in practical terms (although, 
even
> after everything, I am not without hope), I rather like having Xan
> footloose and ready for B/X as my alternate Spuffy-stopping plan.  
Like
> a large, large portion of the male audience, that was my 
original 'ship,
> after all.

I know from experience that I don't understand the "average male" 
very well, so I'll defer to your judgement.

I'm probably biased, in that X/An is the only Xandership that I've 
liked much (I would hesitate to use the term relationship about 
X/Faith). Probably because she went after him, for some reason I very 
rarely emphasise with guys getting the girl, with girls getting the 
girl, girls getting the guy and guys getting the guy, sure. Probably 
just over exposure to conventional romantic narrative, which isn't 
really fair on BtVS which isn't overly conventional.


> 
> Besides, I don't think everybody has to be paired up at the end.  

It would be a bit "Friends" or "Dawson's Creek" wouldn't it?

>I'm opposed to SingleBuffy (which many seem to like) because I see 
the show
> as (at least in part) an examination of life through Buffy's heroic
> journey, and since Romance has been part of that journey, I think 
ending
> with "ah, well, I guess I don't need to find love" would be a little
> negative, at least for me.

Working woman can't find love. I think there would be a lot of cross 
feminists, just as many as the opposite - working woman must find 
love.

> 
> OTOH, not everyone has to find their soulmate by the age of 22. I'm
> perfectly fine with Xander getting his life together and waiting for
> whatever comes in **his** future. The question "Can Xander find 
love?"

But then, they live in TV land don't they?

> Personally, I think it would be hilariously clever foreshadowing if
> Buffy's mistaken impression that Xander's "I'm going to marry that 
girl"
> line in "All the Way" was about Dawnie turned out to be the truth, 
after
> all. (And hey, Buffy's looking at Anya and Dawn when he says it--why
> should she think Xander's talking about Dawn, and not his 
girlfriend?
> Unless she's been picking up a vibe... [or she wants Dawn for
> herself...])

You know I actually played with Xander/Dawn for a fic (yes the 
invisible one, can't you see it?), but seeing for various reasons 
Dawn's marriage was going to end badly, plus X/An was looking better 
and better at the time, I dumped it. I'm going to have to work out 
how to write snippets.

> But my favorite scenario for Xander is him going to "Angel" after 
this
> series ends and stealing Cordy away from the Big Brood. Ah, 
revenge! :)

When it comes to "Vampire love" you seem to have a lot in common with 
early Xander scowling across the room at Angel.

 
> Okay, now a brief (ha!) rebuttal to your B/W "problems":
> 
> 1) Little SMG is far less likely to inspire Butch-o-phobia than 
Lucy
> Lawless (and Xena/Gab never did leave Planet Subtext, so Joss would
> still be doing something new). Besides, somehow I think "I knew it 
all
> along!" would not be the audience's main objection to this plot ;)

Can't disagree. (Also can't believe there are people out there who 
still deny Xena/Gab, heavy subtext, heavy like neutron star)


> 2) I can't see that having a lead gay couple excludes straights 

Plus watch the ratings for the male demographics. I probably tend to 
over emphasise the balance because I've occasionally had chain 
reaction gayness in writing - you have the couple, then you have the 
single looking, then the long term couple and before you know it it's 
like "Queer as Folk" out there.

I expect Joss could handle B/W without alienating the audience.

Buffy gay? I must admit that it possible, that girl runs a very 
impressive line in denial.
(Private feeling is that everyone is on a continuum, so Willow isn't 
gay, just fonder of girls than guys (Oz was more than just denial))

> Oh, and of course there's a ton of B/D subtext--they stole Willow's
> role in Buffy's life and gave it to Dawnie, so the subtext went 
with it.

All the better for the evil minds over at BuffyAndDawn; and they have 
been busy. Of course if Dawn is made from Buffy, narcissistic 
complexities abound.

> Oh, and speaking of Gilmore Girls and incestuous subtext, let me 
tell
> you what you missed by not being in the U.S. That full-page color
> newspaper ad that they ran for the premiere ( a pic of Lorelai 
smiling
> shyly and Rory with her head cocked and smirking sexily at her as 
they
> walked side-by-side) was waaaaay too slash-tastic for me considering
> that that's an actual mother and child (as opposed to B/D)...

But also "best friends" surely any B/W shipper has spent a long time 
on that scenario?

> 
> (not to mention the "a lot can happen over a summer" tag 
line...yikes!) 



<sigh> Sounds like a beautiful image (despite a lot of searching I 
haven't found a Roreali fic that does justice to their relationship). 
Before I get lynched, it's mainly that I like to see how people 
handle the unusual, actually, I ship Rory/Paris, and I'm moderately 
well disposed to Jess (so long as he doesn't score). But its 
remarkable how many lists specifically exclude Rory/Lorelai 
considering how little of it is written. If you thought to exclude 
it, you thought about it.

> 
> And
> 
> now
> 
> at
> 
> last
> 
> the 
> 
> long-
> 
> awaited
> 
> spoiler
> 
> space
> 
> for 
> 

> "Lessons"

(Detailed reply would take all afternoon, sticking to the interesting 
bits)


> Yes, the inclusion of Buffy in the Bad-A-Thon could simply be a way 
of
> picking up on proto-Adam's implication that the Slayer Power comes 
from
> the same place as the demons', but really, so what? Does a slayer's
> biological heritage invalidate all the heroism she's done? No 
matter
> the body, she still has her soul, "her urge to do what's right". If
> Buffy is "dosed with demon DNA" that just seems to make me think 
that
> the power is just like any other weapon--capable of being used for
> either good or evil, depending on who's wielding it.
> (And didn't Faith's arc already make this point? That being a 
slayer is
> no guarantee of goodness?)
> 

Yes she's a hero because she had a choice (people always have a 
choice, that's what makes a soul to me as an agnostic. In some 
ethical systems a sense of right can diminish this because you didn't 
have to search for "right")

> There are only two possibilities I see where this could go, and they
> both tend to suck. Either Buffy's "demonic heritage" is revealed, 
but
> she can control it, which is used to give her something in common 
with
> SouledSpike , or alternatively, she can't control it, is inevitably
> corrupted, goes evil and gets killed. (Or at least depowered...)
> Blecch and bleccher, for my money.

Raising a sore topic, struggling for control would give her something 
in common with Willow, now, wouldn't it?

CA
(fic, what's that?)