Re: Re: :SPOILERS For next week's ep. plusrambling

["myself03" <myself03@xxxxxxxxxx>]

Hey,

Damm, remembered why i stopped the whole discussion thing, i just can`t
stop....
----- Original Message -----
From: <danspector@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <buffywantswillow@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 2:33 PM
Subject: Re: Re: :SPOILERS For next week's ep.
plusrambling


Oh,

sorry

to

have

lost

you

because

I

was

vaguing

things

up

and

didn't

want

to

bother

making

Spoiler Space,

Molly.


>You know, how gay people got equal treatment what
with Tara being a pointless random murder victim whose death doesn't
spring from the character's own actions, just like all the heterosexual
main cast characters this has happened to...

Quite frankly i'm a beliver that there wouldn`t be so many people upset over
the end of this particular relationship and Joss wouldn`t have gotten these
awards if the relationship hadn`t been portrayed the right way....Heck, it
was THE most normal relationship on the show for quite awhile...I keep
trying the come up with a reason for it to be NOW classified as unequal
other than the way that Tara died and since i didn`t see anything so awful
about that then i really feel lost, since there is no longer a relationship
to be disrespectful to...So Tara`s death was pointless because it didn`t
come from the hands of a main character or a demom or something else...The
bullet thing might seem a little too realistic, but it was hardly the only
"the real world" stuff they tried, unsucessfully , to deal with this past
season...After all, financial problems, addiction and rape attempts weren`t
really issues before....Not only that, but you know scary evil Willow ?
Yeah, Tara`s death kinda triggered that...Maybe at that point the death of a
little kitten would have made them pull out the evil Willow card, but to
them Tara would bring a more dramatic feel to it, as if she was avenging
her lover`s death and all....Many think they were wrong in thinking that,i
particulary think they were wrong in a LOT of things this past season, so it
is a mute point....Maybe this time it was not about what/who caused Tara`s
death, but the consequences of it...

>or Willow going totally
psychotic and becoming a murderer herself, just the same way Giles tried
to end the world when Jenny died...

First, Giles didn`t try to end the world, but he, like Willow, tried to go
after the one he judged responsible ....Second, Giles didn`t just spent the
entire season dealing with his lack of self control concerning things that
could and did, even before scary Will, cause a lot of damage...I may have
hated what happened to Will this season, lot of character destruction going
on, but the way they left that in the middle of the season it was clear it
was not just that..She would have to be tested and she failed , had it not
being TAra it wwould have been some other Hellmouth thing...Point is , they
wanted to get to Evil Willow, they wanted to explore the reason they put the
addiction storyline there to begin with and they used Tara for it...The
Willow thing ddin`t come out of nowhere, her irresponsible use of magic and
all that came with it were there long befora Tara died, heck, it was there
when they still were the happy couple, it was , in fact, one of the reasons
they stopped being a happy couple to begin with....

>or how reducing the gay population of
the show to Andrew the evil, incompetent, virgin dork throwaway
character is entirely equivalent to the fact that heterosexuals comprise
the main cast, the heros of the show, and all that Spuffy that we have
to watch (and will probably have to endure again...).

As far as know there isn't really a quota...THere sure wasn't in the first ,
second and third season....Not only that, but Willow is still in the show,
in fact, she one of the main characters and one of the three original cast
members...As for Spuffy...I hate that as much as i hate T/W or F/B , but i
kinda learned to live with it...It is going to happen , so...Still, by the
end of the day, i think many B/S fans have it pretty bad...Most of the
season they kept trying to convince Buffy and the fans tha the guy was
becoming a Knight and then boom, he goes and try to rape Buffy....In a show
like Buffy deaths happen everyday, but not rape attempts...Buffy may get
past that, but many B/S won't...Even more so, now a lot of the ï don't care
for pairs" people don't want that either...So, by the end of the day, a
relationship where one of the parts tries to rape the other is a lot more
damaged than one were one of the characters is shot by a third part...No
matter what they do now, soul or not soul, the damage is pretty much done,
so....


>I was just very annoyed that what I felt was a CYA

DISAGREE!!!!!!!!Errr, what is CYA ? : )

>attempt by Joss was
taken as "ooh, yes, he's so right, oh the burdens poor Joss bears being
attacked by these crazy lesbos." I think Joss's attitude here is
exactly the same as the bigots': "If you make me stop doing hateful
things, then you're imposing 'political correctness', and that's just as
wrong. I need to have freedom to call blacks 'nigger' (or in Joss's
case, to kill my gay character and make my Jewish characters immoral
weaklings, while glorifying my steadfast Christian men, including Crayon
Christ Boy Xander), or else YOU'RE the bigot, not me."

First , I don`t consider myself a biggot, i dunno, maybe it`s because i`m
not a true femslash fan, I`m a B/W lover, so i wasn`t as affected by this,
but i never in any moment thought that the people attacking Joss were "crazy
lesbos" to me it was a fan reaction...These past few seasons i called Joss
everything and some for destroying B/W friendship I can only imagine what a
T/W fan might have felt, but i never thought he had to explain
himself...Truth is, it`s his story, he chooses how to tell and i`ll decide
if i watch or not...It`s not a matter of being PC or not, but what if it had
been Oz dating Willow at that point, would he have to explain it too..Is
there such a thing as a wolfphobic ? If he has to keep explaining why he did
this or that to a or b there are a LOT of B/A and O/W fans in front of the
T/W fans who also demand A LOT of explanations....

As for the Jewish remark...I think not even Willow remembers she is jewish
anymore...Now Xander...I think i was the only one that thought that made
sense, and not in a Christian way ...Of course , i would have paid to see
Buffy reach out for Willow, but by the end of the day, she is still a
slayer...plus, lately she is also emotionally slow, so i`m gonna cut her
some slack, Giles was dealing with the magical aspect, so who was left ?
XAnder....The fourth member of the official group, but the one who knew
Willow from the beggining...Before Buffy, demons, TAra, Oz , hellmouth there
was XAnder....In a sixth season ep Willow thought that Tara could never love
plain Willow , and in the end she is still struggling with her own identidy,
so I think that having XAnder remind her that that little girl, magicless,
powerless and defenseless was still loved kind of made sense, especially
since he was the only one who knew that girl, who knew the original
Willow...

>IMO, it's a twisted logic that equates STOPPING hate crimes with the
hate crimes themselves, and I was saddened to see so many BtVS fans
(here and elsewhere) buy into it.

Guess i don`t quite understand your analogy...To me what is saddening is
that everything is treated as if there were two weights and two measures (
literal translation, sorry) ...

>That said, I think that having Willow immediately go back to Boystown
and making Tara just an unfortunate lesbian blip on her otherwise
straight life would be grotesquely insulting,

First, while i do support the idea of Willow having relationships with man i
never thought that Tara would be the one meaning nothing...In fact, the
complete disregard they seem to have for the previous relationships, like
W/O , W/X and even A/B is what bothers me the most... I never said she was
straight, what i`m considering is if she is gay or bi...To me making Tara a
fling is as insulting as making Oz a fling, so.. If you date guys for 3
years and then realise you`re gay it`s one thing, but in a seven seasons
show where a character has showed interest in men for half of it and women
in the other half is different...

>>**particularly** since
they tried to play our heartstrings by making W/T a thing of destiny and
so on.

It was supposed to be a destiny thing ? How so? I think I missed that...To
me it was a relationship...A stable one, but a normal relationship....

>I think if they ever were to put Willow back with a guy, she
should first have a bad experience with a female (Anya, perhaps?)

Could be, or FAith...I`m warming up to F/W ...It keeps Faith away from
Buffy....THe thing is i don`t really care who they put Willow with( other
than Buffy ) , I too think it would be best were it a woman, but i just
don`t think that the possibility that she could eventually fall for a guy
should be so frowed upon...

>> and
then come to the conclusion that what she loved about Tara was the
person, not the gender.

See , that is my point in the whole thing, making it about the person, not
the gender....That was i fell in love with them in the first place after
all...I mean, by the end the person i want Will to end up with is still a
girl...But i want her to end up with Buffy, not with someone of the feminine
gender....

>>...like hooking up Willow with the title character, say...

(okay, I'm dreaming, but let me be...)

Well, I don`t blame you for that...It`s such a great dream....

As for what ME has to say about Willow being gay and that was it...Well,
Buffy`s most intense relationships were with dead guys, i so don`t wanna
that to mean what i think it could mean...

>Dan

Well, I`m done with this particular topic and now i`m going to propose a
groups activity to calm people down...Heck i need to calm down...Luckly it`s
sunday, so a lot of emi-naked women walking around on open tv and soccer
matchs will help...Ah, my life, the country economy is going to hell , my pc
is freezing every ten minutes, our new president can barely speak
portuguese, but there is always trashy stuff on tv to cheer me up : )....

Oh, and i`m thinking about coming up with a group to hunt down authors of
unfinished fics....I even know who to start with...His name begins with D
and ends with an...Any ideas who could it be? Huh , Dan : ) ? Or maybe
Cristeen...But I heard Will was already after her for keeping her knocked up
for so long : ) Something about shoving a watermelon down her thoath and
keeping it there for years : )

Rod, who may disagree with Dan on this particular subject, but still thinks
he is one of the the most cuddlesome moderator the lists ever had, despite
he not picking up the weekly theme : ) Plus, he is one of the BEST B/W
supporters ever...You got admire that : )