Re: OT; Top 100 Buffy moments, response (1/4)

[danspector@xxxxxxxxx]

Impressive stuff, Kirayoshi!

JetWolf certainly has done a job far better than I could do, as far as
thinking this out and the production end of it.  However, I'm gonna add
my 2¢, which are going to come in the form of critiquing the
selections, and giving my personal opinion of whether they were rated
too high or too low, or shouldn't have been there at all.

[Late editorial note:   As JetWolf appears to prefer Seasons 5-7, at
least from what I've seen so far, and as those are my *least* favorite
seasons, this is rather negative, at least so far.  Be warned.] 

Since I tend to write long [late editorial note:  Oh, boy!]  and don't
want this to turn into a novel, I'll break it into four parts.  Counting
down from 100:

100:  The Floaty Dance (Family)

Cheesy, yeah, but sweet.  I "awww"d when I first saw it, although now it
seems silly.  I, of course, have little fondness for Tara apart from W/T
and now have some retroactive ire for "Family" after Season Sux featured
so much of Big T screeching "you did a spell on me!" at Willow, while
she and the writers conveniently forget all about how Tara lied to
Willow from the moment she met her and for the first year of their
relationship, and was so desperate to keep her "secret" that she cast a
spell that endangered everyone's lives (Cousin Beth is written to be a
horrid, hateful character, but everything she says to Tara in their
confrontation about how Tara's betraying the Scoobs' trust and being
completely out of control is absolutely true)...and Willow immediately
forgives her and tells her that it made Willow love her all the more (as
opposed to, say, abandoning Tara for 32 days at the lowest point in her
life and hanging up on her phone callsnah, I'm not bitter, no
way...).

So I don't think I'd put this in my top 100, but it was cute, and I
don't really object to it being in JetWolf's.

99)  Bullets to Birds ("Primeval")

I certainly wouldn't call "Combo!Buffy copies 'The Matrix' " the
greatest finale fight, as JetWolf does (Buffy, Angel, swordsneed I
say more?) but it is cool.  I might even rank it a little higher, for
the four-voices effect and the wonderful "We can.  We are forever."
line, which seemed to underscore the special bonds between the leads
that made the show so great...

...of course, then they pretty much wrote W/X/G off the show and started
this insane three-year arc about how only Spike understands Buffy
because she's a creature of darkness and "I love my friends, but..." and
"the Slayer is always alone" and completely ignored the fact that Will,
Xand and Giles should now know and  understand Buffy perfectly, having
**shared consciousness** with her and **felt the Slayer power inside
them** and all, but that's somewhat OT here...

98)  The Masturstaker ("Hush")

Very funny, even moreso for the reaction shots.  I have a feeling that I
might have considered it too frothy if I made a list, but the whole
scene (including Willow and the CD, and Giles and the transparencies) is
definitely a keeper.

97) "The Earth is Doomed" ("The Harvest")

I might bump this up slightly, too, because I think the premiere was
very important in establishing the basis of the show.  Fine scene, nice
bit with having Giles give his final word...but unlike JetWolf, I give
NO extra points for the horrible regurgitation of this scene in That
Awful Finale.  (In fact, I have to fight to keep the cheap copy from
tarnishing this a little.)

96) Something So Evil ("Tough Love")

Underrated scene from an underrated ep, IMO, and one I might have
overlooked.  The beginning of bringing depth and self-examination to
Dawn, who'd mostly been whining before, as she grows to heroism in the
S5 finale.

Of course, they don't let Dawn actually **be** a hero and jump, and any
brief suggestion that her new maturity would result in her playing "big
sister" to Buffy during Buffy's depression the following year got swept
away, because that would have meant that Buffy had someone to count on
besides Dear Old St. Cheekbones, so Dawn gets reverted into a whiny
brat, another Burden that poor thirtysomething single mom Buffy must
bear and only her Bad Boy With A Heart Of Gold twuwy wuvs her...

(Why yes, I AM going to keep bitching about S6-7 throughout this entire
thing, why do you ask?  Deal or hit "Delete", your choice.)

95)  Steadicam through Sunnydale ("Restless")

Eh.  Just Joss being showy with the direction, which IMO has been a
failure of his since that pointless tracking shot in "Anne".  I'd rather
use one of his deft shots from  "Innocence" (the "hidden Buffy" shot
that opens Act III, for instance) if we're showcasing Joss's directing.

Although for me, the value of a shot relates to its impact on the story,
so I don't know if I'd have a specific "cool shot!" in here.

94)  The Physical Presence of R.J. ("Him")

Again, not sure that comedy moments from the later years would make my
list, and my fave "Him" moment would be Buffy and Spike fighting over
the bazooka, but definitely funny, and I've no problem with it being
here.

93)  "You didn't tell me!"  ("After Life")

Uggh.  I'm glad that JetWolf lost all sympathy for Spike as S6
progressed, but I was already out of it by now, even though I liked him
just fine at the end of S5.  The anvils of "Scoobies Bad, Spike Good"
were falling all over "After Life", where the gang evilly dare to ask
Buffy how she is, while Sweet Soulful Spikey rolls his eyes and sulks
out the door.  

As for the idea that Spike's upset because he considered the Scoobs
friends?  Well, I'd believe that a lot more he if hadn't been urging
Buffy (in "Spiral") to run away with him and Dawn and leave the others
to their deaths, or if in the very next ep ("Flooded"), Spanky didn't
offer to **kill** the Scoobs if Buffy wanted him to.

(Oh, right, Spike's "joking" about that, I forgot.  Because Spike's
never tried to kill Willow and Xander before.  Because he wouldn't kill
them in a second if Buffy asked, and rationalize it as doing what his
"love" needs him to do.  Surrrrrre.)

On a character level, this scene is an early example of Season Sux's
muddled logic.  We're supposed to hate Willow because she brought Buffy
backbut we're also supposed to hate her for not including Spike in
it?  WTF?  And we're supposed to think that Only Spike Twuwy Wuvs Buffy
because he says they left him out because they know he wouldn't let them
kill a Zombie!Buffybut just eight eps before ("Forever") Dawn tearing
up the photo and destroying Resurrected!Joyce (before she even found out
if there was anything wrong with R!Joyce) was supposed to be a sign of
Dawn's growth and maturity?  Okaaaaay.

On a technical level, this scene marks the beginning of Season Sux not
being able to remember the simplest details.  Spike slams Xander up
against a tree and doesn't blink.  Chip?  Hello?

This turkey of a scene wouldn't make my Top 1000 moments.  Maybe not Top
10,000.

Repeating:  Uggh.

92) Anya Keeps Fighting ("End of Days")

Emma told Joss she wasn't signing up for Season 8 early on, so Anya got
completely ignored as a character after "Selfless".  This windy
restatement of things she'd *already decided* about humans *in S5*
didn't impress me, and Andrew is in the scene, which is pretty much a
good reason to dump it, right there.

Away!

91)  Giles Gets Groped ("The Killer In Me")

Anti-climactic wrap-up to a stupid "misdirection" plot that required the
characters to act incredibly stupid (Giles left Robson to die?  Even
after First!Eve got into their house in "Showtime", the Scoobs didn't
institute any means to check on this happening again??) and out of
character, to boot (Anya, who was fighting to hug Giles in "Grave",
never touched him?  Xander never slapped his back?  **Buffy** never
touched him?).  So Giles seemed cold and distant and thus people thought
he was the First, right?  But he wasn't? So why was he cold and distant?
No reason, Joss just thought it would be funny to jerk the viewers
around.

The scene *was* funny, but not enough to redeem this.  Plus, Andrew was
in it (see 92, above). 

Mostly just a good jumping-off point for fics (Anya/Giles/Dawn orgy?)
and, as JetWolf basically says, relief that the "suspense" is over.
Skip it.

90)  Not It.  Me.  ("Conversations with Dead People")

An effectively atmospheric climax, and the last time I had hope that the
show would get good again.  But the entire ep was a set of fakeouts and
false promises (Spike **isn't** evil!  Andrew **isn't** cold and creepy
and a serious villain!  Jonathan's death **doesn't** have any
significance!  The First **isn't** an effective manipulator, from now on
it's just a blowhard!  Buffy **doesn't** gain any psychological insight
and make changes in her life!  There **isn't** any Buffy/Dawn story
coming!  We **never** find out if that was really Joyce!) and the
structure sucked, too.   Still, points for good set-up, but all set-up
and no payoff is an empty meal.  Deserves a spot, I suppose.

Well, it's certainly more worthy than..

89)  Spike Wants to Murder, Rape and Vampirize Willow, but Can'tand
Willow Tries to Cheer Him Up!!!!  It's comedy gold, I tell ya!!  Gold!!
("The InShitiative")

Possibly the most sickening scene in the history of the show.  At least
Buffy's rape wasn't played for laughs and they only had her want to drop
her 15-year-old virgin sister off with her rapist the next day, not try
and aid in her own murder and rape.

Vile, and they made Willow look like an idiot in the process.  All to
try and fake out the fans who'd heard fake spoilers that Willow would be
vamped on the 'net.

On a more minor complaint, the ep itself is a timewaster that only
exists to drabble out a few bits of ep for the season arc.  ("Riley's a
commando."  "Spike has a chip.")  You could cover that with a 30-second
scene at the end of "Wild at Heart", and spare us all the pain of this
crap.

(To show it could be done, I actually wrote the "revised final scene"
for "Wild at Heart", covering the entire plot of this pustule of an ep.
It took five lines, one of which was "Agent Finn, report.")

Unless a Spuffy kiss makes #1, this is probably my greatest objection in
the whole list.

88) Ripper and Joycie ("Band Candy")

Tony Head and Kristine Sutherland have great fun, but the ep is an
exercise in jerking the characters around and making them into cartoons
for cheap laughs.  Giles was NOT Ripper at 16, that was at 21 (see "The
Dark Age"although it might have been cool to see neurotic,
about-to-crack, Teen!Giles).  Joyce was NOT a dizzy slut in high school,
she was such a nerd she thought *yearbook* was a lot of fun (see
"Witch").  And if Giles is a horny sixteen-year-old, why is he chasing
after 40-something Joyce when there are all the hot teens around?
(Giles hitting on Cordy might have been great fun.)  And stage-diving?
Drag racing?  That's not the realistic teenage stories we'd been
getting, that's some adult's idea of "wild and kooky teen
antics"heck, Jane Espenson even admits it's not real with Willow's "I
don't act like this" denial.  

(This is also probably the beginning of the shift from empathy for
teens, as in the first two years, to contempt for them, as in
"Storyteller" and much of S7, generally.  The more I think about Sitcom
Jane's work on the show, the less I like it.)

There's some good stuff in the ep (B/W interaction, Oz, the W/X footsie,
Buffy conking Giles with the basketball), but I'm leaving this off of my
list.

87) Do What Makes You Happy ("New Moon Rising", Act II)

Ehh, I found Tara a little spineless and passive-aggressive here.  Her
martyring "I know you're going back to Oz and I'll be happy for you"
attitude grated on me, personally.  You could at least say "I'll support
you no matter what, but I think we have a real chance and I hope you'll
choose me" or something like that, rather than just being all sad-sack
and playing on Will's guilt buttons. 

That said, I'm hoping JetWolf put in the Oz/Tara confrontation at the
end of Act II, because *that* was worthy. ("Run.")

86) I Let Her Be Dead ("The Killer In Me")

Powerful stuff from Aly, and while I'm tempted to bump it up a little, I
think it's placed about right.  My only complaint would be that,
although I like Kennedy, the scene would be *much* more powerful if the
new girlfriend was someone who actually knew about Tara (Buffy, Dawn,
Anya, hell, even Faith) and actually understood what Will was going
through, rather than a complete stranger who doesn't even know why
they're in that back yard.  Buffy would have been great because of her
bond with Willow and her own guilt about Tara, and Dawn or Anya would
have worked well because they loved Tara very much themselves and would
have had issues of their own about taking her place.

Also, given how Willow really doesn't seem ready for a new girlfriend in
this ep, the jump to full-out smoochies afterwards seems wrong.  I'd
rather have seen W/K develop a *friendship*although I suppose
Kennedy-haters would claim she's too shallow for that.  (Hm.)  Still,
good stuff.

(My favorite ep of S7, if you couldn't tell.)

85)  Transformation ("Villains")

Nice special effect, but that's all.  Frankly, I was more impressed and
surprised by the effect when Spike stabbed Angel and Drusilla with DuLac
Dagger in "What's My Line, Part 2".

84)  It Must Be Bunnies ("Once More With Feeling")

My love for the musical faded once the novelty wore off, and the poor
story, character assassination of Xander, and use of characters learning
*stuff the audience already knew* as a "climax" sunk in.  Anya's number
is diverting, but not the high point for me, and I can think of four or
five songs I prefer.  Of course, JetWolf may like the ep so much all
those songs are ahead of this, but we'll see.  I'd say "overrated",
though.

83)  "Tiny, Tiny Babies!"  ("Who Are You")

See, unlike the never-explained bunnyphobia in 84 above, this is
**comedy that comes from the characters** (staid Giles, called upon to
distract the cop, overacts painfully and hilariously) and which
**advances the plot** (as Baith sneaks into the church).  Probably a bit
overrated, but worthy of a slot.

82)  The Best of Us ("Doppelgangland")

Grossly underrated.  Top 50 for sure, Top 30 likely, Top 20 possible.
A wonderful scene that illustrates the bonds between the characters and
at the same time accomplishes the extremely difficult challenge of being
hilariously funny despite the seriousness.  (Joss comments about the
difficulty of this scene in his DVD commentary for "The Harvest".)  

Wonderful work by all involved, and let's not forget the massive B/W
'shippiness.  A true classic.

81)  Kinda Gay, Take Two ("Tabula Rasa")

Meh.  While Aly's expression is nice, and the blatant copying of
dialogue is somewhat forgiveable since it fits the ep concept (and
doesn't go to the extremes of "Two To Go" or the Worst.Finale.EVER.), it
does signal the turning from *subtle* self-referencing to "let's just
say something again, like the blooming onion, and it'll seem like
continuity."  (Again, the pointless and unexplained bunnyphobia running
gag springs to mind.)  Besides, it's not even a pale patch on the
original.  Skip it.

80)  I Love You Guys!  ("Seeing Red")

Even JetWolf admits this is here for personal reasons (Dawn reminds her
of a friend), not because of the quality of the moment.  Skimpily-clad
Michelle is easy on the eyes, and Dawn drooling at the thought of
lesbian sex in her house is great for the slash potential, but an
all-time great?  No, I'd say not.

79)  Put 'Em Up ("The Body")

Very Sweet W/X moment.  Perhaps a little overrated, and I'd have to
include the following "Xander decided that he blames the wall" bit for
full marks, but no real quibbles here.

78)  The Madness of Joyce ("Listening to Fear")

Soapy depression that grated rather than affected.  I like the Queller
Feller, and Joyce's first outburst ties the delightful "Tiny Jewish
Santa" scene to the plot, but Buffy sobbing to the salsa music?  Nah.

77)  Aud ("Selfless")

I thought the first flashback was hilarious, with the B-movie acting and
cinematography, and the *subtle* references to "Triangle" ("I could eat
a small child!" and "Your logic is strange and confusing, like a
troll's") and gave it huge points for not wasting our time with things
we knew happened, like Anya actually getting vengeance on Olaf

and then the second flashback *was* all about familiar ground, and
featured Anya not blinking at all at D'Hoffryn's appearance, and an
inexplicable change into modern English, and the other flashbacks didn't
do anything for me, either.

The original, all-Swedish, flashback might get in on its own, but as a
group, nah.

76)  It's Just Like Going To Sleep... ("Conversations with Dead People")

Too indistinct from 90, above, to merit a slot of its own.

So in sum, a lot of overrated, a much underrated moment (82) and
something that should be erased from human consciousness rather than
celebrated (89).  Not to my taste.  

As I noted above, waaay too heavy on The Dawn Years, so far.  The count
by seasons at this point is:

Season 1:  1 moment
Season 2:  NOTHING (**head spins, and explodes**)
Season 3:  2 moments
Season 4:  6 moments
Season 5:  4 moments
Season Sux:  5 moments
Season 7:  7 moments

(How many people would make S7 their most-celebrated season, I wonder?)

Pre-grad:  3.  Post-Grad: 22  (How?  What?  How?)

Hoping this improves,

Dan

who could probably do 100 moments from Season 2, alone


Willow: "It's a good fight, Buffy, and I want in."
Buffy:  "I kinda love you."
                     'Choices'

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