For the most part agree here with Dan, the
single scene does not make everything the same as before, BUT
what is does do is give hope. It insinuates that
there is a chance of forgiveness in the future. If a VS is written, yes they
shouldn't suddenly have everything fine between them, and have a romantic
relationship immediately,forgetting al ast arguments etc, but it does give a
basis from which to start the healing.
-Daenerys
----- Original Message -----From: danspector@xxxxxxxxxSent: Friday, April 02, 2004 11:34 AMSubject: Re: ~Buffy*Wants*Willow~ Kind of an OT post and sort of a rambleBob,
I don't mind discussing S7, but you're right, I didn't want to dive head
in until I feel up to doing the whole review.
E,
That said, I did want to mention that your defense of ME's depiction of
Spike as Buffy's only true friend seems to me to prove my point. If
Buffy now hates Willow ("After Life"/"Life Serial"), feels contempt for
her ("Conversations with Dead People") and believes Willow can never
truly understand her ("End of Days"), then how can a VS8 B/W 'ship be
justified? (And I won't even get into Buffy's treatment of Will,
particularly in S7). One pilfered and stilted conversation isn't going
to convince me that these people are anywhere close to being friends
again, nor does "defeating" the First (absolutely nothing in "Chosen" to
indicate it was defeated, but that's an OT critique) mean that there's a
basis for romance, or else soldiers would be making out on battlefields
around the world.
ME broke the group to make the show AllAboutSpike and have Buffy give
him her Seal of Approval, and trotting them out together for a picture
at the end IMO does nothing to undo the rot of the last 2 years.
Patrick,
Thanks for the support.
Dan
**************************
Longish OT Postscript:
Bob,
On the OT subject of B/G, dismissing it with "Father Figure" is IMO a
pop culture misapplication of psychology. A "father figure" is merely
"you're knowledgeable/protective/nurturing, and I like that in a guy".
Hardly different from Buffy's relationships with Angel or Riley. It's
*not* "I don't have a father, so I think of you as my dad and therefore
sex would be sick, sick, sick."
An excellent article on this subject that I originally saw on the Buffy
Cross & Stake is archived here:
http://boadicea.net/buffygiles/frames.htm
(Click on "Articles", and then "Father Figure or Lover?")
Half a sentence from Quentin Travers ("You have a father's love for the
child?") should hardly be taken as the last word, IMO, considering
that Travers:
a) doesn't know Buffy and Giles
b) is a pompous, hidebound, jerk
c) every other thing he says in the ep?**including the other half of
that very sentence** ("?and that is useless to the cause.")?is
canonically considered as nonsense, and
d) "Helpless" is undone two years later by "Checkpoint", including
Travers's acceptance of Buffy as a woman and equal to him (and thus to
Giles).
Buffy has a strong (if troubled) relationship with her actual father.
Giles didn't raise her, mold her values, shape her attitudes. Giles
doesn't have parental authority over her (contrast her reactions to him
with her relationship with her actual parent, Joyce) and doesn't attempt
to assert it. He's a smart older guy who sometimes gives her comfort
and advice? How's that different from the Buffy/Angel scenes in "Ted"
or "Gingerbread", or the Buffy/Riley scenes in "Fear, Itself" or "Real
Me"?
(Or see Buffy comforting the same three guys in "The Dark Age" and
"Amends" and "This Year's Girl", respectively. See her trying to
protect them from self-destructing, in "Passion" and "The Zeppo" and
"Out of My Mind". [Does this make Buffy into Angel and/or Riley's mom?]
See her raging at their betrayals, in "Helpless" and "Lie to Me" and
"Into the Woods", and hurt by their abandonments in "Tabula Rasa" and
"The Prom" and "Into the Woods", again. There are very few beats in the
B/G relationship that Buffy didn't go through practically the same thing
with Angel or Riley, too.)
B/G is hardly my most prominent 'ship (I support almost all permutations
of B/W/X/C/G, but with B/W a clear #1), but even before I started
reading fics and so on, the "Ew! He's like her dad!" response seemed
simplistic and somewhat ageist. (And in turn, silly, considering that
Angel is about 200 years older than him?a boyfriend trend Buffy's
commented on, from "Angel" through "First Date") Personally, I think
any idea that she sees him as a parent is dead by the time she gives him
and Dr. Weirick (the zookeeper) that "Boys!" scolding in "The Pack", if
not when she taunted him with "And you'll be stopping me how?" in
"Witch"
JMO, though, and a very long O at that.
(OTOH, if you want to point out that Tara treats Willow the same way
Sheila Rosenberg did and thus that's really squicky, then I'm right
there with you. Not to mention "teach me to be a human being, Xander,
and then we can go have lots of orgasms! **shiver**)
Willow: "It's a good fight, Buffy, and I want in."
Buffy: "I kinda love you."
--'Choices'
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Willow: "It's a good fight, Buffy, and I want in."
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--'Choices'
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