Re: Re: Implications in the canon?

["myself03" <myself03@xxxxxxxxxx>]

You know, i said i was going to keep quiet , but i just had 
to answer....It just seems to me that things have different 
pov depending on where you're standing....I don't know if 
this was meant to be the moderator post or not dan , but this 
is the one i'm going to be responding to, as a moderator and 
as a list member....
Quite frankly, i'm not here to judge who is a B/W ship or 
not...I know i am , i like them and that is it, my post had 
the intend to address a list problem....Truth of the matter 
is, the way things go with these things , an argument like 
this always ends up becoming something bigger and it wouldn't 
be the first time it would happen in here...
I agree with you , the discussions of past eps and series are 
on topic and all, when the discussions become arguments then 
i really think they enter the ot realm...I've seem negative 
reviews on the show done in the past , some pretty big ones , 
including yours, and i agreed with most of them.To me season 
6 and 7 were really weak, the writers went back on all they 
said and all that crap, i've read it all, thought it 
all...It's the way things go, but i have to admit e'baileys 
last posts irked me as a B/W shipper....Maybe i wasn't fully 
able to grasp what she/he was saying , maybe it was my 
interpretation, but for quite a few posts i felt the need to 
defend the ship, to find something to validate it , to prove 
something to e'bailey...I felt ( and that's how i saw things) 
the attack as an attack on the ship itself, not on the 
writers or the situaton the characters were put in...Maybe it 
wasn't e'bailey intent, maybe it was, but that is how it came 
out to me...


Once again I repeat, it's all a matter of interpretation, not 
only the show , but everything else.....Dan , maybe bashing 
may be too strong, but i also think of these lists to be a 
B/W safe heaven...If you go into a straight list you getpro- 
Spuffy, to a slash you get B/F or T/W , but in here wer're 
pro B/W, if we have to defend the ship in here 
too....Argument in favor or against  , yes, defend not 
really....

And Rainne, i'm not here to grade the B/W love...I may have 
had a problem with a few things that were said or how these 
words were perceived by me, but not with the people behind 
them...I have read the Unconventional shipping views from 
e'bailey quite a few times and i find them hilarious, and i 
really won't stop thinking so because i didn't agree with 
what she/he said in regards to a few subjects...

Dan is right , the list is a place to talk about 
Buffy/Willow , good or bad, but sometimes people need to know 
how to balance the bad with the good...

That was it, once again, my mailbox is open...



> Okay, a really quick thing before I come back later.  (I'll 
try roman
> numerals this time.)
>
> I)  We don't really have many rules here.  We like Buffy, 
we like
> Willow, we think they'd be great together.  Everything else 
is fair
> game. positive or negative.  You can love or hate Xander, 
Tara, Spike,
> S1, S7, B/S, B/F, B/G, B/Parker (all he needed was love! 
<g>), whatever. 
> What you can't do is flame people, ask them why they're on 
the list just
> because they express an opinion you disagree with.  See the 
subject line
> above.  And, to go way back, "ickickick" is not really a 
productive
> comment.
>
> II)  Discussion of episodes or seasons (**especially** from 
a B/W
> perspective!) is NOT "off-topic".  It's in the list 
definition:  check
> out the main page.
>
> III)  Saying you thought the 'ship was mistreated in an 
episode or
> season does NOT equal bashing the 'ship.  Nobody's perfect 
all the time
> (Joss's belief that the sun literally shines out of Spike's 
ass aside
> <g>) and Buffy can have a bitchy day, or a writer/EP can 
write a script
> that makes Buffy act uncharacteristically 
bitchy/shallow/whatever, and
> saying so doesn't mean we love B/W less.  (I'd argue it 
means we love
> them more and hold the show to a higher standard.)
>
> IV)  Noodling over what exactly the creators intended does 
NOT mean
> you're bashing the 'ship.  There's a reason it's 
called "SUBtext"
> it's deeper than the surface.  Joss intended, at various 
times, that
> B/A and B/R and B/S (and W/O and W/T) ALL be seen as True 
Love, the
> girls' One and Only.  But, hey, things change in ways that 
even Whedon
> never planned, whether it's Boreanaz getting a spinoff or 
Seth Green a
> movie or Blucas getting no love from the fans.  So what the 
canon ends
> up as is chapters of an incomplete story, the details to be 
filled in by
> the viewer, based on their understanding of the characters 
as presented
> over time.  If Joss tries to claim that the Scoobs are weak-
willed
> murderers and Spike is Buffy's Only True Friend, we can 
laugh and say,
> "sorry, doesn't fly, I've actually seen the show, dude."  
The greater
> understanding is what we take from the characters over 
time, as the
> characters and story take on a life of their own (as any 
author will
> tell you they tend to do).  So, speculating as to exactly 
how much was
> planned is nothing more than an intriguing gameit doesn't 
impact what
> truly resulted, and I don't see a reason to get riled about 
it.
> That said, any implication that this is a lesser 'ship 
because it's
> unconventional, or that whatever slice of canon you choose 
to focus on
> must be accepted as the be-all and end-all IS bashing, and 
will not be
> tolerated.  That Buffy told Angel she loved him (5 times, 
all in
> stressful circumstances) does NOT definitively mean she's 
not a lesbian,
> that she doesn't love or belong with Willow more than she 
ever loved
> Broody.  That Willow made depressed remarks over how Tara 
was the only
> thing in her life that made her feel wonderful does NOT 
mean that she
> doesn't value Buffy's friendship, that she didn't have joy 
and happiness
> from all the wonderful moments we saw them together.  Not 
everything we
> say is definitively true for the entirety of our lives
heck, a lot of
> it is B/S even as we say it.
>
> It's perfectly fine to try and figure out what rings true 
and what's a
> temporary misperception or whatever, to fit things within 
the
> BuffyLovesWillow framework that we all believe inbut don't 
talk down
> to us or try and shout us down with "Well, the canon 
says&".   The
> canon says a lot of things, to a lot of people.  
>
> Heck, we can't even agree on Buffy's birthdate, and our two 
Jan.
> 20th-born writers can't even agree on whether that would 
make Buffy a
> Capricorn or an Aquarius.  Respect the differences, and 
respect Buffy,
> Willow, and B/W.
>
> V)  Damn right we need more fic!  Has absolutely zippo to 
do with
> whether we're having a 'ship discussion, though.  Want more 
fic?  Write
> it!
>
> VI) It would also be really, really nice if people would 
GIVE FEEDBACK
> to the authors.  That's a real good way to keep the fic 
coming.  MORE
> FEEDBACK, PLEASE.  MORE FEEDBACK.  And, did I mention 
this?  MORE
> FEEDBACK.
>
> VII) If you don't want to read non-fic posts, don't read 
them.  Simple
> as that.  That's why we ask that the fics are **clearly 
labelled as
> such**, with "FIC:" in the subject line.
>
> VIII)  Damn, this got long.  And I'm sure I've still missed 
something.
> Will come back later with individual responses and my own 
take on some
> matters in E's last post.  (Er, last couple of posts&
apparently 'e
> types faster than I do.)
>
> Peace, love, and B/W smoochies,
>
> Dan


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Willow: "It's a good fight, Buffy, and I want in."
Buffy:  "I kinda love you."
                     'Choices'

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