Re: OT Election (thread stops here)

["Kimber" <kimbertvs@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "vickysmith2368" <vicky2368@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <buffywantswillow@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: OT Election



> I have noticed a lack of fiction on the list lately and while I don't
> know why other authors left I do know why Ivy Gort did.  She explained
> her reasons to me in an email and she left for one reason, this is a
> gay list and her creative efforts were putting her mentor in danger.
This is not, nor has it ever been a gay list.  This list as well as 
buffyloveswillow is all inclusive and does not turn away members based on 
their sexual preferences.  It is however a fiction/discussion list which is 
dedicated primarily to a f/f fictional couple.

> For a lot of people the concept of America's election is abstract, if
> you live in the "blue states" then it difficult to understand the fear
> that drives gay people living in some of the red states.  But let me
> break it down: if just one of Ivy's stories is linked to her mentor
> then it is possible for her mentor to lose her healthcare, her
> retirement benefits from her job, and because her mentor is disabled
> all her disability insurance.  Since Ivy was under 21 in the state in
> which she lived, in when most of the stories she wrote were posted,
> her mentor could be arrested for undue influence of a minor.  All
> these laws are on the books of most states they were just never
> enforced; in the past four years the political leaders have taken it
> as a mandate in some states to start enforcing them.
Unless Ivy's 'mentor' is a state offical, federal employee, or working for a 
school district in a teaching sense AND Ivy is under the age of 18 or 16 
(whatever the age of adulthood is in her state) then her mentor will suffer 
NO reprocussions.
What State does Ivy live in and what 'books' are you refering to?  In all 
States that I know of, a person is seen as an adult and responsible for 
their own actions at the age of 18.  The age is as low as 16 in some.

> The second thought I would like to add is voter fraud.  I saw almost
> every African-American at my polling place be stopped from voting.
> The white, male, Republican "poll watchers"  stopped every single
> African American and challenged their right to vote.  In my state you
> are not allowed to ask for picture IDs, actually you aren't allowed to
> ask for ID at all, just your name and address,  the Republican "Poll
> Watchers" were demanding two forms of ID from every African American
> that voted.  How many people on this list have two forms of picture
> ID?  These people were kept from voting with no provisional ballot
> offered.
Had this occured exactly as you described, then it would have been on the 
news.  Period.  This is 2004, not 1954 and while I have seen blips and 
blurbs mentioned on the news about this, I find it very hard to believe that 
EVERY african american citizen in your polling district simply bowed their 
heads reverently to 'the man' and went home.  What state was this in?  Was 
it on the news?  Was this 'abuse' reported by anyone (including you) to 
state officals?  Other than to an internet mailing list I mean.  I would not 
contest your statement had you opened with "In my state (whatever) voters 
were turned away because they're african american.  Here (link) is the news 
article or here (link) is one persons story.  Also, for your information, 
even if you are a returning voter, you must have 2 forms of ID on you.  This 
goes especially for first time voters who are REQUIRED to bring with them 
TWO PICTURE ID'S.

> The next thing I would like to add is Iraq.  Our men do not now, nor
> did they when the conflict started, have bodyarmor, armored humvees,
> and spare parts.  In some cases they are running out food.  While the
> company that is supposed to be supplying them is now being
> investigated by the FBI for fraud.  Everyone knows the name of the
> company so I will move on.
The body armor issue was resolved back in June.  Every troop in Iraq now has 
the UPDATED version of body armor.  Before June, they were given body armor 
used during the Gulf War and other conflicts before Iraq.  So it was not 
that they didn't have access to the armor, it's that the NEW armor was not 
yet available.
Humvee armor is also an old topic.  It was resolved in April and now 100% of 
all humvees in iraq are armored with RINOpacs.
I've seen no report of a lack of food for the troops.  Please point me to 
the news source and/or article that mentions this.
Point being, if you're going to have a discussion on the election and/or 
politics with anyone, you should be armed with FACTS and REFERENCES and 
speak in an intelligent and ADULT manner.  I can give the URL to the news 
article or internet blip or even newspaper clipping to any of the above 
statements I just made.  My responses are not driven by emotion or 
speculation or 'she said this' and 'he said that', rather they are driven by 
fact.
---------------

Frankly, this is a fun fiction list.  You are in one or more of the four 
categories here:  author, lurker, avid reader and/or moderator.  There are 
enough places on the web and in other likeminded mailing lists where you can 
voice your opinon on the matter.  We've learned over the years that this 
list is NOT the place for political discussion.  It just causes everyone's 
hackles to be raised and the outcome is never favorable.  I had this 
discussion with the great Tony McD on list once a long time ago.  If I 
remember correctly, he was a right leaning republican military man (Mike, 
correct me if I'm wrong and if it was you I spoke to about it).  Still, he 
came here, he wrote wonderful stories with his brother and we all got along 
just fine.  This is the type of thing we should all be focusing on right 
now.
Nothing is going to change the fact that more than half the country voted 
for Bush (including my gay log cabin republican brother and my straight 
democratic married brother) and less than half voted for Kerry.  Everyone is 
focusing on who's on what side, where the lines are drawn and how the other 
guy did this that or the other thing.  This is a time to focus not on what 
divides us, but what we have in common.  Tony McD and I avoided politics 
when we talked on AIM here and there.  But damn, could we get into it about 
Buffy and Willow and whatever the current episode was and what the hell Joss 
was gonna pull next.  That's what brought us together and I never would have 
given someone like 'him' a second thought for conversation based on his 
party beliefs.  I never would have known the man for the man instead of the 
man for what his party believed in.
Face it, we're all different, we all come from different backgrounds and 
we're not all ever going to agree.  Best part is that we are all entitled to 
our opinion.  But just not here and just not about politics.  This is a 
subject driven list.  The subject is Buffy and Willow and all that surrounds 
those fictional characters.  The subject is NOT the war or the election or 
the  president. In passing, yes.  As an in depth discussion where emails 
become longer than some of the fic we've seen?  No.
If anyone has any objections to ending this thread, please email me 
PRIVATELY.  See the subject line:  thread ends here.
That is all,

~~Kimber

P.S. Vicki - You were not censored or silenced.  Your message was moderated 
and required approval before being passed onto the list as a whole.  As 
moderators, we strive to be anything BUT hypocrites and I for one resent 
being called one.  You have been a member since 8/31/2003.  Your  messages 
are being moderated.  I do not know why, for how long you have been 
moderated or how long you will continue to be moderated.  Two people control 
the moderation of the list.  Dan and (last time I checked) Quin.  But I 
think mostly Dan. (Dan?  Am I right?)
P.P.S - For anyone being 'moderated' - your message will take longer than 
most to get through, perhaps a few hours.  You can take this up with either 
Dan or Quin as they are in charge of filtering and moderating new members 
and certain messages.  Rod, Shyfox, Shadowlander and myself (as far as I 
know) have NOTHING to do with the moderation of messages or members 
therefore you must take up your case or cause to Dan or Quin.  Occasionally 
if any of us see a message sitting in the pending folder, we'll scan over it 
and more than likely send it on it's merry way to the rest of the list. 
Also, keep in mind that there may be a backlog of messages and members. 
This is just  how things are so instead of sending nastygrams to the 
moderators about censorship, just zip off an email asking about the delay. 
It may be that one of us hadn't checked the folder in a while.
Until Yahoo figures out a way to stop the overwhelming spam messages we 
recieve then all new members are put on 'message pending approval'.  No 
exceptions.  Think of it as a 'trial' period of sorts.  We just wanna see a 
few of the messages you're going to send to the list before you're given 
regular status.  You'd be amazed at how many people have been banned because 
they sign up with a bogus email address and send revolving emails to all 
1200 people or so on list to "INC.REA.SE YO.U.RE PEN-IS  SI.ZE" 20 times a 
day.  Do you really need that in your inbox?  Think of it as our way of 
cutting down on the crap that hits your box and making sure that the only 
thing you get from the buffywantswillow and buffyloveswillow groups has to 
do with the group and is from a valid and valued group member.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled fanfic. 



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Willow: "It's a good fight, Buffy, and I want in."
Buffy:  "I kinda love you."
                     'Choices'

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