LOG: WD.com 'Welcome to the Hellmouth' Thread

[Mad Hamlet <Mad-Hamlet@xxxxxxx>]

Greetings,

Herein is a complete log of all the posts regarding BtVS S1E01 that were made
on the Wiffy-Dreamverse.com forums. So everyone is one the same page as it
were. The Thread is still open of course but as 'The Harvest' is airing
tonight so this is as far as logging of both The BWW and WD.com will go.

It's a bit long but hey, interesting reading.


__________________________________________________________________________


Howard
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 10:52 am    Post subject: Ep01 'Welcome To The
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This is the thread for "Welcome To The Hellmouth" discussion.

Two part episodes will be split up, so "The Harvest" will be its own topic.
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Howard
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 10:30 am    Post subject: My point of view. 
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Hello Everybody!

Guess what! It’s Tuesday! So here’s my take on “Welcome To The
Hellmouth.”

Personally, this is one of my favorite episodes and I think it’s one of the
Wiffiest. Hmm. Perhaps there’s a connection. You be the judge.

Overall, the cinematography and the effects leave a lot of room for
improvement. And, as this is the replay, we all know that they do improve a
lot over the years. That first dusting? *Groan* Okay, they did establish the
sound effect, but the visual... Ick. Eventually they will learn how to shoot
the series in the dark much better.

The acting is top-notch. I mean, considering that the actors are all so young,
they’re phenomenal. Nicholas Brendan in particular. He’d done a few things
as an unnamed extra—such as “Basketball Player One” in “Children of
the Corn III”—but this was his first featured role. He keptt up with the
seasoned professionals very well.

And you can see that everyone is in character. Often, they change after the
first few episodes as the actors develop their characters. But here, they’re
well established right away. Well done.

There’s a reason this became one of the most popular shows.

The only disappointment is Angel. Is it just me or was he playing Angelus
here? Less brooding, more cocky and smirking. Could be that the character was
changed in later episodes, but this Angel doesn’t fit the tortured soul
character he later becomes.

Okay, on to the Wiffy!

Well, before we check in on our girls, let’s look at when Buffy first met
Xander. He’s helpful and says stupid things—as boys tend too do with pretty
girls—and Buffy says, “Nice to meet you.” Then she  walks away with a
blank face and without looking back. Obviously, no impression made.

Now let’s look at our girls when they first get together. Looking at each
girl’s actions, I gotta say that Buffy makes the most Wiffy moves in this
episode.

Buffy first sees Willow in the famous water fountain scene. Look how Buffy
reacts to Cordy’s taunts. Now, it isn’t established until “The Witch”
but Buffy was a cheerleader at Hemrey High. That’s also from the movie and
Joss knew he was keeping that for the series when he wrote this episode. So,
cheerleaders tearing into those they consider “losers” is nothing new to
her. Why the surprise?

Then there was the look as Willow walked away. Granted, Buffy looks more
confused than lusty, but still, you have to wonder what she’s thinking. Why
would a—sorry, Willow—poorly dressed girl like that get BufBuffy’s
attention? Why the look?

And notice that she stares twice. When Willow starts walking away, Buffy is
staring at Willow while Cordy is talking. She has to visibly tear her focus
off her to look away. She gives Cordy a polite chuckle and nod, then goes
right back to staring at Willow. She’s obviously quite effected by the
girl.

Then there’s the fact that Willow paused to look back at Buffy. Why?
Normally, when publicly mocked and belittled, you don’t try to make eye
contact with the witnesses. You don’t want to connect with whoever saw the
verbal abuse, you just want to leave. Yet she pauses and looks back.

There’s an obvious connection between them, established right then and
there. But I think Buffy was effected the most. First Wiffy point to Buffy.

Next up, the quad scene. Buffy, even after being warned away by the popular
cheerleader, walks right up to Willow. She asks for a favor that involves
hanging out with her for a while. She claims to want to fit in, yet she
knowingly sets herself up to hang out with Willow. She was a popular
cheerleader herself at Hemrey so she knows full well what associating with
someone that’s considered a “loser” will do to her social standing. She
seeks out Willow anyway.

And what’s her reason for hanging out with Willow? She doesn’t want to
flunk all her classes. Which is funny because she later tells Giles that she
was afraid that she’d be behind in her classes. She listed that along with
being afraid that she wouldn’t make friends or that she’d have last
month’s hair. Now, those weren’t true, so that kind of indicates that the
third thing wasn’t true either. But when she talked to Willow, she said she
needed the help.

I love how quickly Buffy reassures Willow that she isn’t dull.

And what does Willow do during this scene? That’s right, she looks at
Buffy’s cleavage. Not once, not twice, but an incredible three times! Well,
several seasons from now, it’ll be established that she’s a breast girl,
so it’s totally in character for her.

I give Buffy a point for seeking out Willow; Willow a point for checking Buffy
out.

Next up, The Bronze. Again, Buffy goes to Willow. True, she’s the first
person she had screen time with that she sees there, but this is a club that
most of the school goes to. She had to have met someone other than Cordy, her
future Slayerettes, and Jesse “Bait” McNally. She was in school all day. A
pretty girl has no shortage of people willing to introduce themselves. But
somehow, Willow is the first person she recognizes. Despite her knowledge of
social politics, she goes to Willow anyway.

They have a pleasant conversation where Willow reveals that she is single.
Seems she has trouble talking to guys. Well, that’s her problem right there!
Eventually she’ll learn.

Another point to Buffy. Seems she just can’t stay away from Willow.

Then Buffy spots Giles. She goes to leave and assures Willow that she’ll be
back. Willow would’ve been much safer if she’d believed her. But no, she
has to let herself get picked up by a vampire.

While Buffy and Giles are chatting, they spot said vampire. Buffy points it
out to Giles but makes no move to slay it. She just stands there, leaning
against the railing as if it’s no concern to her. Until she notices that the
intended victim is Willow. Then it’s suddenly a huge deal. And Buffy is off
to slay those that threaten her Willow.

And how does she find Willow anyway? I mean, she’s outside The Bronze,
asking Xander where Willow would go, then suddenly she’s in a cemetery, in
the crypt where Willow is. The first in a long series where Buffy always shows
up where Willow is when she’s in danger.

Bonus point to Buffy for rescuing her fair damsel in distress. That’s four
points for Buffy to Willow’s one. The hacker has to make some moves to catch
up.

This is one of my all-time favorites for Wiffiness, mostly because it’s
Buffy that makes all the initial efforts. There are several fics out there
that start the Wiffy story right here with an already gay/bi Buffy because of
it.

But don’t just take my word for it. Watch it yourself and tell us what you
think.

Your fellow ’shipper,
Howard

Simulcast on BWW and The WD.

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sexy
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 6:52 pm    Post subject: WTTH 	Reply with quote
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Very Happy Tuesday! Well What can you say about Welcome to the Hellmouth
besides that it is a classic Buffy ep.

There wasn't that much Wiffyness in this ep...which is okay because I never
really like Willow as a nerdy type girl...but as we all know Buffy spices her
up a little and she become the Willow we know and love today.

My favorite part of this episode is right after Willow gets her drink and
Cordeila has her bitchy moment telling Willow off about her clothes. When she
walks down the hall and turns back and her and Buffy make eye
contact...*sigh*

You know from that moment that Willow and Buffy were going to be something
special. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:35 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
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Howard, what's with the huge font?

General stuff

Angel: Since he didn't get a personality until he and Buffy did the nasty,
we'll just leave this blank of a character in the corner until later.

Darla: It's a real shame we didn't get to see the REAL Darla this early
instead of this pathetic excuse for a 400 year old vampire. she was barely
above newbie vamp! I've always wanted Buffy to go against Darla after she had
been turned by Drusilla in AtS S2. at least then, we'd get to see them at
their best, instead of a Newbie Slayer easily over powering an ancient
vampire.

"Hi! I'm an enormous slut!": brilliant line. seriously, so funny, the way she
looks when she says it.

Wiffy stuff

ok, I gotta be honest: I never saw Wiffy in the earlier seasons. I had to read
fanfiction and re-watch Season 4 before I got it. so all these alleged
"shippy" moments people list in the first three seasons mean nothing to me
other than friendship. I mean, yeah, I SEE them. and I understand why they can
be interpreted - after a lot of work - as shippy. but they're not that just
shippy to me.

still, the "classic" Wiffy moments were the waterfountain, the quad, the
Bronze. any more? I think I covered them all (and when I say I, I mean
Howard)
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MykeAbner
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 1:00 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
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Not a personal fan of this episode. I don't mind Season one itself, but the
first episode just doesn't 'click' for me.

As for the Wiffiness, I'm not really sure. It just doesn't feel right to me.
I'm not saying that it seemed more friendly than romantic, but at this point
in the show Buffy and Willow don't feel completely like Buffy and Willow. I'm
not sure why I feel this way, but I guess that understanding myself would take
the fun out of my life.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 2:48 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
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voting for definite Wiffy.

Are you people blind? Of course there is Wiffy. There is a significant
connection. There is the look. And the other look. No, it's not lust or
romance or heat or anything like that, no. Rather, the recognition of a
connection that is inviting, intriguing, but not yet understood.

It's completely different than Buffy's interaction with Xander, which is more
or less bemused, like "Cute puppy, I hope it doesn't hump my leg."

As for the general stuff, I like that they roll right into it, and also that
they establish so much of the complexity of Buffy's emotional landscape right
off. Excellent job of packing a lot of exposition and mythos in 45 minutes of
tv. I could have done with less Cordelia.
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Howard
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:39 am    Post subject: Big Font. 	Reply with
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You don’t see the inherent Wiffiness in a popular-type girl working that
hard to make a nerdy “loser” a part of her life? I’ve heard of love at
first sight, but never best-friends at first sight. Buffy goes out of her way
on several occasions to get closer to Willow. Xander just came along as part
of the Willow package. Willow, she sought out. I think it’s very ’shippy.

Howard

P.S. When I discovered that I could use a larger font here, I did so. I used
the same font and size on my own site. It's just much more readable to me. No
other significance.

I've since changed it because it bothered some people.

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Dutch
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:48 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
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Quote:
P.S. When I discovered that I could use a larger font here, I did so. I used
the same font and size on my own site. It's just much more readable to me. No
other significance.


I get that, I've had problems with fonts at a bazillion places, but could you
maybe just adjust your personal PC settings rather than your posting settings?
The format is a little out of place and obtrusive compared to others' posts.

Thanks Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:53 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
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Greetings,

As promised posts on the BWW list are being echoed here. Full credit to the
original poster is given. Should the original poster actually repost their BWW
post here this copy shall be removed.

EBaily wrote:

Quote:
> Hello Everybody!
>
> Guess what! It's Tuesday! So here's my take on "Welcome To The
Hellmouth."
> Personally, this is one of my favorite episodes and I think it's one
of the Wiffiest. Hmm. Perhaps there's a connection. You be the judge.
> Overall, the cinematography and the effects leave a lot of room for
improvement. And, as this is the replay, we all know that they do
improve a lot over the years. That first dusting? *Groan* Okay,
they did establish the sound effect, but the visual... Ick.
Eventually they will learn how to shoot the series in the dark much
better.

But, great dialog in that scene, where Buffy warns us of what we're in
for during this series. "Are you sure? "Cause this is not going to
be pretty. There'll be violence, strong language, adult content..."
> The acting is top-notch. I mean, considering that the actors are
all so young, they're phenomenal. Nicholas Brendan in particular.
He'd done a few things as an unnamed extra-such as "Basketball Player
One" in "Children of the Corn III"-but this was his first featured
role. He kept up with the seasoned professionals very well.
> And you can see that everyone is in character. Often, they change
after the first few episodes as the actors develop their characters.
But here, they're well established right away. Well done.
> There's a reason this became one of the most popular shows.
>
> The only disappointment is Angel. Is it just me or was he playing
Angelus here? Less brooding, more cocky and smirking. Could be that
the character was changed in later episodes, but this Angel doesn't
fit the tortured soul character he later becomes.

Yeah, but we didn't know what he was, yet. He was less "King of Pain"
during the first season.
> Okay, on to the Wiffy!

> Well, before we check in on our girls, let's look at when Buffy
first met Xander. He's helpful and says stupid things-as boys tend to
do with pretty girls-and Buffy says, "Nice to meet you." Then she
walks away with a blank face and without looking back. Obviously, no
impression made.
> Now let's look at our girls when they first get together. Looking
at each girl's actions, I gotta say that Buffy makes the most Wiffy
moves in this episode.

She's usually the one who does, actually.

> From the first episode, there's the B/A thing, obviously. And, Xander
beginning his quest for Buffy, which will be the main non-Master
subplot of the season. It's also noticable that they haven't
established the "distance rule" for Tony and the girls, yet. Giles is
violating Buffy's personal space right and left, here. Then, he
violates Willow's. Smile
> Buffy first sees Willow in the famous water fountain scene. Look
how Buffy reacts to Cordy's taunts. Now, it isn't established until
"The Witch" but Buffy was a cheerleader at Hemrey High. That's also
from the movie and Joss knew he was keeping that for the series when
he wrote this episode. So, cheerleaders tearing into those they
consider "losers" is nothing new to her. Why the surprise?

She'd hadn't seen it from this perspective. There seemed to be an
assumption that the audience knew stuff about the movie. There was
even an in joke with Angel's "I thought you'd be taller". He was
expecting Kristy Swanson. Smile
> Then there was the look as Willow walked away. Granted, Buffy looks
more confused than lusty, but still, you have to wonder what she's
thinking. Why would a-sorry, Willow-poorly dressed girl like that get
Buffy's attention? Why the look?
> And notice that she stares twice. When Willow starts walking away,
Buffy is staring at Willow while Cordy is talking. She has to visibly
tear her focus off her to look away. She gives Cordy a polite chuckle
and nod, then goes right back to staring at Willow. She's obviously
quite effected by the girl.
> Then there's the fact that Willow paused to look back at Buffy.
Why? Normally, when publicly mocked and belittled, you don't try to
make eye contact with the witnesses. You don't want to connect with
whoever saw the verbal abuse, you just want to leave. Yet she pauses
and looks back.
> There's an obvious connection between them, established right then
and there. But I think Buffy was effected the most. First Wiffy
point to Buffy.

Of course, if we look at this from a femmeslashy perspective, we've
got a triangle with Wilow, Buffy, and, Ye Gods, Cordelia. Buffy wants
'em both, but is informed that that's illegal.

Oh wait, the "Ye Gods" scene is next season...
> Next up, the quad scene. Buffy, even after being warned away by the
popular cheerleader, walks right up to Willow. She asks for a favor
that involves hanging out with her for a while. She claims to want to
fit in, yet she knowingly sets herself up to hang out with Willow.
She was a popular cheerleader herself at Hemrey so she knows full well
what associating with someone that's considered a "loser" will do to
her social standing. She seeks out Willow anyway.
> And what's her reason for hanging out with Willow? She doesn't want
to flunk all her classes. Which is funny because she later tells
Giles that she was afraid that she'd be behind in her classes. She
listed that along with being afraid that she wouldn't make friends or
that she'd have last month's hair. Now, those weren't true, so that
kind of indicates that the third thing wasn't true either. But when
she talked to Willow, she said she needed the help.

How do you know those weren't true? She didn't think there'd be
vampires on campus. Those were her main concerns, going in. She sees
the opportunity to kill two vamps with one stake.
> I love how quickly Buffy reassures Willow that she isn't dull.
>
> And what does Willow do during this scene? That's right, she looks
at Buffy's cleavage. Not once, not twice, but an incredible three
times! Well, several seasons from now, it'll be established that
she's a breast girl, so it's totally in character for her.

And, she's crushing on Giles. Mixed messages from Willow, here.
> I give Buffy a point for seeking out Willow; Willow a point for
checking Buffy out.
> Next up, The Bronze. Again, Buffy goes to Willow. True, she's the
first person she had screen time with that she sees there, but this is
a club that most of the school goes to. She had to have met someone
other than Cordy, her future Slayerettes, and Jesse "Bait" McNally.
She was in school all day. A pretty girl has no shortage of people
willing to introduce themselves. But somehow, Willow is the first
person she recognizes. Despite her knowledge of social politics, she
goes to Willow anyway.
> They have a pleasant conversation where Willow reveals that she is
single. Seems she has trouble talking to guys. Well, that's her
problem right there! Eventually she'll learn.
> Another point to Buffy. Seems she just can't stay away from Willow.
>
> Then Buffy spots Giles. She goes to leave and assures Willow that
she'll be back. Willow would've been much safer if she'd believed
her. But no, she has to let herself get picked up by a vampire.

Again with the mixed messages.
> While Buffy and Giles are chatting, they spot said vampire. Buffy
points it out to Giles but makes no move to slay it. She just stands
there, leaning against the railing as if it's no concern to her.
Until she notices that the intended victim is Willow. Then it's
suddenly a huge deal. And Buffy is off to slay those that threaten
her Willow.
> And how does she find Willow anyway? I mean, she's outside The
Bronze, asking Xander where Willow would go, then suddenly she's in a
cemetery, in the crypt where Willow is. The first in a long series
where Buffy always shows up where Willow is when she's in danger.

Radar.
> Bonus point to Buffy for rescuing her fair damsel in distress.
That's four points for Buffy to Willow's one. The hacker has to make
some moves to catch up.
> This is one of my all-time favorites for Wiffiness, mostly because
it's Buffy that makes all the initial efforts. There are several fics
out there that start the Wiffy story right here with an already gay/bi
Buffy because of it.
> But don't just take my word for it. Watch it yourself and tell us
what you think.
> Your fellow 'shipper,
> Howard
>
> Simulcast on BWW and The WD.

Well, we kick our epic story off, that we don't know is a big epic
story, yet. We introduce our core cast, Buffy, Willow, Xander, Giles,
Cordy, Joyce, and Angel, and two major villains who'll never quite go
away, the Master and Darla. We get the show's mythology set, right
off, with the Hellmouth. We learn that this isn't a Judeo-Christian
world our story is set in, but a Lovecraftian one, where everything
dates back to ancient, primal, forces that ruled the Earth before Man
came along. But, if this is the case, what, exactly, is the Slayer,
if her power isn't from a benevolent source? We won't get the full
answer to that one for a very long time.

Hey, where's Dawnie? I remember her running around back there...
(Tries to remember details) It's a bit foggy. Huh...

That Principal is kind of tense, isn't he? Don't know if he has what
it takes for the job. Those students will eat him alive...

Darla is played by Julie Benz, who tried out for Buffy. Deciding on
Sarah would have a lot to do with the show's success, as much of the
actress would immediately be worked into the character. Plus, she had
great chemistry with her co-stars, which would give the series it's
wonderful dynamic. It would have been very different if Julie had
been cast in the role. Aside from the fact that Buffy would be a very
different character (Aside from the personal bits from Sarah's life,
Joss took Buffy places because he knew Sarah could go there), the
chemistry wouldn't have been the same, as Julie was immediately
feuding with Aly. There'd have been no Wiffy dynamic.

Next week: We conclude our two part opener, with our first
apocalypse. And, we introduce another character played by someone who
tried out for Buffy. Yayyayyay!

E


I remain, as always,
Mad-Hamlet
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:54 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
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Greetings,

SilentSean response to Ebaily with a question:

Quote:
But, if this is the case, what, exactly, is the Slayer,
if her power isn't from a benevolent source? We won't get the full
answer to that one for a very long time.

Did we ever get that? I mean when Buffy died she did say she was in
heaven....


I remain, as always,
Mad-Hamlet
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:55 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
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Greetings,

Ebaily responds to SilentSean's question:

Quote:
> Did we ever get that? I mean when Buffy died she did say she was in
> heaven....

The hints that the Slayer power was from a darker place started here,
picked up in Season 3, began being explored in the last episodes of
Season 4 and the first episode of Season 5, before being fully
explained in Season 7.

In the Buffyverse, the Afterlife does exist, and, it seems, there are
very nice Afterlifes. But, this being a Lovecraftian Mythos, the
supernatural power comes from a time before the concepts of good and
evil came about. The Old Ones were primal and amoral. The power they
left behind isn't good or evil unto itself, but JUST power. What
Buffy always seemed to know, and what Willow and Faith had to learn,
was it's what you DO with the power that counts.

E


I remain, as always,
Mad-Hamlet
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Big Font. 	Reply
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Howard wrote:
You don’t see the inherent Wiffiness in a popular-type girl working that
hard to make a nerdy “loser” a part of her life? I’ve heard of love at
first sight, but never best-friends at first sight. Buffy goes out of her way
on several occasions to get closer to Willow. Xander just came along as part
of the Willow package. Willow, she sought out. I think it’s very ’shippy.


a) Buffy used to be Cordelia. she knows that life. and me thinks that - due to
recent events, such as Slaying - she no longer wants to be that. b) she
doesn't wanna be alone. she wants friends. regardless of their social status.

I could take an evil spin on this and say that Buffy sought out Willow because
she was an easy target to befriend.

Howard wrote:
P.S. When I discovered that I could use a larger font here, I did so. I used
the same font and size on my own site. It's just much more readable to me. No
other significance.


I see. well, regardless, it's quite annoying to read such large text.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:41 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
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I, for one, don't find it any more annoying to read large text, than it is
annoying to see gigantic avatars that have nothing to do with BtVS every other
post-- in terms of the space used and the distraction factor, what's the
difference between large text and large graphics?

Is Howard breaking some forum rule or is just your personal taste? Perhaps the
issue can be resolved in another place and we can get back to the episode?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:52 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
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there are no gigantic avatars on this forum. not anymore.

and I have no authority at this site, so as far as I know, no rules are being
broken. I haven't mentioned the slightest thing about any rules. and perhaps
it doesn't really matter where it's "settled" since it takes up so little
space of the topic and besides, as far as I'm concerned there's nothing to
resolve. I've made my arguement and am done.
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acs
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:22 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
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I don't agree that all of the characters were so well defined in the first
episode, even considering the way all twelve episodes were shot (several
scenes were shot much later, after the actors had spent more time "as" their
characters.)

Somewhere up-thread there's an Angel comment or two. Thought I would address
that and other things.

Am I the only one who doesn't really see a Buffy/Angel connection this early
in the show? She could have staked him right there and we wouldn't have missed
his annoying presence. He doesn't become a "real character" until season 2
with Angelus - which I've always attributed to the actor's inexperience, not
the story itself.

He had a number of moments (eg. the "I'm not your friend" bit and a couple
things in the next episode) that seem strange/stumbling and take us out of the
story.

IMHO Xander only has one of those "out of band" bits of dialogue - when he
overhears Giles talking to Buffy in the library.

Willow has one in the crypt but other than that I think she's pretty solidly
written.

Giles in the Bronze... I think the writing there could have been better... but
maybe that's because he seems to be a bit clueless about vampires during the
early part of the season - especially considering what we learn about his past
in later seasons.

Cordelia? I spent last night indulging in some of my favorite Buffy/Cordelia
fics so I probably shouldn't say anything Smile about her here.

And Buffy? I think she gains a lot more depth as a character in later seasons
but even in this first episode I think SMG has her nailed down (I actually
think SMG has become more beautiful over the years so Season 1 Buffy often
seems a bit "young"/ too "teenager cute" to me for the things she has to deal
with.)

-Andy-
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Well, looks like I'm a bit late, as most of what I thought of to say has been
said. It doesn't help that my friend borrowed my s1 DVDs and has yet to return
them... can't blame her, though, I only gave them to her Friday. So I'm
working off memories, episode guides, and the like. But, to reiterate some
Wiffyness points - and stick in a little personal experience - well, that's a
chance I sorta have to take.
Anyways. Water fountain scene. Classic. Definite connection made, there. There
was no water fountain involved for me, personally, but a hallway confrontation
can be just as effective. So, working from experience, I can say there was
definite interest on Willow's part, because, as was earlier said, you don't
normally look back to see who saw you humiliated. And Buffy seemed much more
interested in this girl she didn't even talk to than she did in Xander
earlier.
Then the quad scene. Yeah, Buffy sought Willow out. And yes, she should have
known what hanging out with a 'loser' would do to her social status. But she
didn't at all seem to care... even when Willow reminded her of that little
fact. And, hey, total checking out on Willow's part... and catch the grin. I
noticed that grin. And, hey, yeah, I recognized the grin. I'm sure my Buffy's
seen it from me a few times...
And then the Bronze. Again with the seeking Willow out. And as a quick insert,
look how surprised - and happy - Willow looked to see her. Another look I
recognize. Her thoughts were probably along the lines of 'Wow, she's talking
to me again! Yay!' And notice how comfortable they already are together... no
awkward moments; in fact, they get straight into talking about Willow's
personal life - because why? Buffy was curious to know if Willow was single or
not. Hm.
The vampire thing, too... Buffy wasn't at all concerned until she noticed that
it was Willow there talking to him. Gotta wonder - if it had been anyone else,
would there have been slaying that night? Also cool how Buffy could find
Willow so easily - Willow radar, there. This is the first time we see her
amazing talent to do that all the time, but certainly not the last. And as a
side note, Willow takes the whole
'new-girl-beating-up-the-guy-who-just-tried-to-bite-me' thing rather well.
Just a personal opinion there.
Well, that's all I have to babble about, as I have decided to ignore Angel for
as long as humanly possible. Sorry about all my repetitiveness there, but hey.
My parents named me Willow - guess the babble is part of the package.
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firerancher
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:15 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
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Shock Buffy and Willow? Are you kidding??!!!


LOL. When the show first came on, I waited from for months after the first
advertisement was launched. I thought...hmm...the girl playing Buffy is kinda
cute. I think I'll hang a picture ad on my wall, and hope mom doesn't think I
...lol. Kristy Swanson was my first girl crush...mostly b/c of the Buffy
movie. Little beknownst to my parents, I was definitely NOT checking out Luke
Perry. The truth wouldn't be discovered until much later.

When the show launched, I was sitting there with popcorn in hand, practically
eyes bulging out of their sockets when I first saw Willow. It was love at
first sight...lol. I was totally crushing big time. Forget Buffy...Buffy who?
Who's the nerdy girl? Sears my ass...I shop at Sears, I can get over that.
So...Buffy can, too!! And she does!!!! Next day at school, the show was all
the rage with SMG is sooooo hott, yadda yadda. I mentioned that Aly was hott,
and got some snickers. Mind you, I was with the semi-popular group then but
hey...I never gave up on the convincing. Just meant more Willow time for me.
So, seeing how it worked that easy for me, it just made it more obvious to see
how it worked for Buffy. I was rooting for them from the beginning. Bible belt
be damned!!!

I always saw the Wiffiness, and after watching it for the gazillionth time, I
got to see it again!! IMHO, Angel is a pussy, and Oz should've been shot w/ a
silver bullet long before he even met Willow. I could've done w/o Wesley, too
but that's not until Season 3. We'll get there when we get there!!

This is a blast, guys and gals!! It's like reliving it all over again. It
makes a huge difference when others watch it, too, and not just in the same
house over DVDs. Awww...fun times!!!

-Rin (firerancher)
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Exiled
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 1:43 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
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Jin Hayte wrote:
there are no gigantic avatars on this forum. not anymore.

perhaps it doesn't really matter where it's "settled" since it takes up so
little space of the topic and besides, as far as I'm concerned there's nothing
to resolve. I've made my arguement and am done.


Since this takes up such little space. . . . If there aren't "gigantic
avatars" then how about the medium ones that have nothing to do with Buffy and
drive me crazy trying to read the text above and below it? If the avatars or
whatever they are called could be limited to the side like most of the posters
I would be very thankful.

Now I'll will go away again.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:25 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
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you mean the sigs? they are not embedded within the post itself but placed at
the bottom, and unless all the posts consist of one line each, they're easy to
avoid

and the sigs featured on this site are very small in comparison to other
places

as for them not having anything to do with Buffy: *shrug*
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:47 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
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Jin Hayte wrote:
you mean the sigs? they are not embedded within the post itself but placed at
the bottom, and unless all the posts consist of one line each, they're easy to
avoid

and the sigs featured on this site are very small in comparison to other
places

as for them not having anything to do with Buffy: *shrug*


No I'm talking about the picture at the bottom of each of your posts. It
drives me to distraction to the point where I can't read what you write unless
I cover it up with a piece of paper. Most of the time it also distracts me
from reading the post below it, too.

However, normally I would have "suffered in silence" except you mentioned it
first. This is the last I will say on the subject in this thread since this is
now way, way off topic and the owners of this board have worked so incredibly
hard to make it viewer and user friendly.

Send me a private message or meet me in the feedback section - otherwise - I
really am going away now.
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Mad-Hamlet
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 6:51 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
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Greetings,

Can't add too much.

Most of it has been said.

First show, well written, not badly portrayed. Obvious some actors were
'settling' into their characters, some writers were settling into their
material...yadda, yadda, yadda.

First impressions: An average show with a sparkle of 'something'.

Obvious: A raport between the Ladies. Don't need to really go over those
points again. The reason I won't call it 'maximum' wiffy is because it's the
begining; things are being introduced rather than fulfiilled.

This is a great playground for the idea of a begining relationship. The
glances, averted eyes...yadda.

Herein it's written in ways that lends itself well to the development of a
real relationship between the ladies, also some groundwork is established for
that idea in other pairings as well. Let's not dwell on that.

I liked it.

The commentary track went FUBAR on us. We'll redo it.

Oh, and Frank Zappa's 'Catholic Girls' started playing in my head when we
first see Willow.

I remain, as always,
Mad-Hamlet
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Hanuman
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 6:52 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
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Just a few comments ...

1. The soundtrack was not so good but that is ok because they just got better
and better as the seasons progressed.

2. The makeup work on the vampires was really good from the start which was an
indication for me that the people making the show cared a lot about how it
liooked.

3. The acting, especially from Sara and Alyson, and the writting was far
superior to anything I had seen on tv for a very long time. Joss and company
did a really good job in chosing these people especially given what would be
asked of them down the road. 

4. There is obviously a lot of chemistry between Buffy and Willow that allows
them to connect to one another from the very beginning. While there may be no
blatant wiffiness to be seen, the potentail is certainly there.

5. It is interesting and a testament to the quality of this show that repeated
veiwings still leave me feeling like that was not such a bad use of my time.
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Crys
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 7:05 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
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Much has been said, of course, about the water fountain and quad scene. Well,
this thought will probably draw some gun fire my way, but I think whatever
Wiffy vibes came out of it were only an accident of acting. It seemed this
episode went to some lengths to carry over some character parts from the
movie. Specifically these scenes were a continuation of the lesson movie Buffy
learned in the gym setting up for the dance with her cheerleader friends, and
that was these popular girls are mindless flakes and there are more important
things in life. So this Buffy would choose a real person who intrigued her
over the popular girl- easy, but nothing more. And to end on a more Wiffy
note, (sort of) Movie Buffy ended up falling for the loser heart of gold boy,
so maybe I'm just overthinking this whole thing and Willow is just Buffy's
type.

Crys
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Howard
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 7:40 am    Post subject: Wiffy Vibes 	Reply with
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Hey Crys,

No, I’d have to say the Wiffy vibes are also from the writing.

Buffy has some trouble with everyone she meets in this episode except Willow.
Flutie is judgemental. Cordelia is bitchy and self-important beyond Buffy’s
tolerances—yes, that fits what she learned in the movie but in the  episode
she seemed to be getting along with Cordy until the attack on Willow. Xander,
like Jesse, seemed to make no impression at all. Giles came across as superior
which Buffy rebelled against. Angel just annoyed her.

But not Willow.

There were only two people that Buffy went to, everybody else went to her. The
only exception being Cordy; they were sat next to each other so neither really
went to the other at first. But Buffy sought out two people, Giles and
Willow.

To Giles, she was fairly hostile and antagonistic. She dismissed his position,
his calling, and his country of origin. She denied her calling and told him
she wouldn’t be the slayer he wanted. She even seemed to blame him
personally for the vampire activity in Sunnydale. While she did go to him in
The Bronze, it was fairly obvious that he was only there because of her. And
she attacked him again, saying his being there was ‘kinda skanky’ and that
he lacked a personality.

Then there’s Willow. When Willow was self-critical, Buffy was supportive.
When Willow worried, Buffy reassured. Every interaction between the two was
positive...unlike every other person in the show.

Now let’s look at how Willow acted. When Cordy met Willow at the water
fountain, Willow simply reacted to her. When Cordy was scathing, Willow made a
pathetic excuse. When Cordy got hostile, Willow fled. Moving on to the quad
scene, look at what Willow did. When Cordy came up to the gang, she addressed
Buffy directly but Willow spoke in her defense. Granted, it wasn’t the best
effort, but how many times do you think Willow ever tried to stand up to
Cordelia? But knowing where she stood in the pecking order, she still tried to
protect Buffy as best she could.

The instant connection between them was scripted. It was Willow and Buffy
together against everyone else. Each protecting the other to the best of their
abilities. Each helping and supporting the other. From the script alone, they
had something special together.

Are we wrong to see the potential for something more?

Your fellow ’shipper,
Howard
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firerancher
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 7:35 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
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It was all just so beautiful...

The writing had a lot to do with it, obviously, and the actors. When I saw it
the first time, I went in, thinking that it was going to be like the movie. I
was pleasantly surprised, and wanted to rebel b/c it wasn't but I couldn't.
The show ended up being even better, and it didn't hurt that my Kristy Swanson
crush went over to Aly in a second.

Also, I have to wonder if Joss knew that he would make Willow gay in the later
seasons. When you think back, there were several times when she was checking
Buffy out...even if purposefully or not. That's partially where the Wiffiness
comes from, right? This episode just sets the scene, and I just can't help but
wonder if Joss knew what he wanted in the grand scheme of things for the
future of these characters.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 11:05 pm    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
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I'm pretty sure that Joss knew he was going to make either Willow or Xander
gay early on. I heard something to that extent, anyways.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 2:15 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
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Well, I think he made the right option. From the early characterizations, it
makes more sense to have Willow gay, and not Xander. Xander was
too...hmm...'I'm gonna get a woman,' which in some cases would be just a
deception tactic. However, in Will's case. She's shy, can't talk to people
that she likes...hmm...when she does become more bold and daring, she
discovers her sexuality, much like it is with reality.
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Charlene
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 11:25 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
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Since everyone said pretty much everything about the ep, the only thing I have
to add is a wallpaper. Embarassed
And it's not even a good one. Maybe I can come up with something better for
'The Harvest'.

Click here


Char
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She glows when everyone else is bumping around in the dark.”
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Crys
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 7:39 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
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Hey Howard,

It seems we 'read' the show slightly differently, but only slightly. I had a
more involved post on the list of my impressions of the whole episode that
didn't make it here. <shrug> No big deal, and I won't repeat it all now.

If one were cynical, one could suggest that the writer had to introduce the
best friend immediately and in such a way that not only would we believe that
Buffy had started to care about her and thus save her, but that the viewer
would care enough to want her to be saved. And so we have the damsel in
distress that our hero, Buffy, 'saved' three times in one ep- quad
befriending, Bronze befriending, then the literal 'I'll save your life now'.
Xander and Angel are guys and new girl will keep guys at arm's length. Plus,
if she was dismissive of either one, then you set the tension of which one she
will end up with. So, yes, sparks flew at each of the girls' scenes. An
accident of acting when you know you have to create a bond fast for the story
to work.

Now, not so cynical me... cause remember, I am a Wiffy shipper. Instant best
friends happen when both are so alike it's scary, not from opposites attract.
Opposites attract happens from something much closer to love when not outright
lust. And this thing between Buffy and Willow snowballs into something so very
deep and eternal so fast you might as well say it started here. You could say
it started lifetimes ago and is being replayed again. You could say it will
continue forever as well.

I've never written fanfic before this show and I don't write any other show's
now. I don't write stories just to put two characters together because it
might look good. Believe me, I see it too whether it was accidental or
intentional. There was something about the situations this show put
friendships through that brings up more than the sum of its parts. But we'll
see all that again on the WD's New Tuesdays. <g>

Crys
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 10:44 am    Post subject: 	Reply with quote
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Greetings,

First. This thread is pretty much concluded. 'The Harvest' is airing tonight.
In light of this I'm going to stop sharing posts between the list and herein.

So after this post I'm going to copy/paste this thread in entire to the List.

Second. This is Danspector's post to 'Welcome to the Hellmouth'.

Quote:

Well, I was hoping we'd get more, but then, I'm slacking myself. So,
belatedly…


1) Darla

The very first scene of the series is important, IMO, not merely because
of what it says about expecting the unexpected, but because the twist
on gender roles indicates that our heroine will be different. We're given
the traditional scene of the guy dragging the little blonde girl into the
spooky place, but it turns out she doesn't need him to protect
her—she's the menace, she's the strong one. The traditional male roole
of "protector" is subverted, and we learn that this is a show where little
blonde girls don't need men, they can be strong and live full, healthy
lives (or unlives) without them. Before she's even been on camera,
Buffy is already being coded as lesbian-the traditional male/female
dynamic doesn't apply to her, therefore she can easily choose a female
partner if she wishes.

2) "Try not to get kicked out"

When we meet Buffy for the first time, we learn almost instantly that,
despite being young and healthy and (apparently) financially secure
and beautiful, she's an outcast. We first see her in her room, having a
nightmare, and then she wakes up to Joyce's voice and we see that
she's dislocated from her familiar surroundings, not yet settled into her
new life. Then Joyce drives her to school, and under the cheery facade,
we learn that she's worried because Buffy has already been kicked out
once, she doesn't fit in. And since we soon learn that this is because
she's the Slayer, the "gay" metaphor fits some more. Something
happened to Buffy, something she couldn't control, and now she's
different from other teenagers. She doesn't do what other girls do, and
she suffers socially because of it.

3) Buffy, yum!

When I first saw this ep (on the first FX rerun, 9/24/01) I was struck by
how different she looked then the drawn figure in the pants I'd been
seeing in S5. Not only does Buffy have breasts (real, as various
down-the-cleavage shots will show this year), she has big, wide,
expressive eyes, and she dresses delectably, from the miniskirt to the
deliberately-too-small sweater. This not only explains why the Xanders
of the world crash into stair railings at the sight of her, but shows that
Buffy's separation from the popular life isn't because of anything she
lacks, but because of what she is: the Slayer, the misfit, the odd girl
out.

Plus, let me say again, yum!

4) Buffy and Xander

Xander is instantly captivated by Buffy, so distracted he hurts himself.
Buffy doesn't even know he exists. The relationship, in a nutshell. Buffy
breaks hearts and barely thinks of boys. (Gay, see?)

5) Willow and Xander

When Xander says that Willow's "so very much the person [he] wanted
to see", her face lights up. (It's even more pointed in the script.) The
girl is starved for love, just waiting to blossom. Imagine if some nice
blonde girl started paying her attention…


A note to the W/X 'shippers: we later see that Willow is wearing a
bowling-pins-and-ball pin on her jumper. As we learn throughout the
series that Xander is an avid bowler (has his own shoes), the pin is a
subtle sign of her love for him; his interests are hers. (I bet he taught
her how to shoot pool, too.)

6) Willow, yum!

It's a little strange that this outfit gets picked on as emblematic of
Shy!Willow, as IMO she looks pretty good in it. The jumper's a little
drab, but the white shirt and tights combo works, and it's a lot better
than some of the over-busy stuff she'll wear later in the year. And I
think
her hair is gorgeous, brown with the slightly red tone, and shining like it
was Dawn's…


7) New girl!

Buffy is already the subject of the day. Is Willow jealous that some
unseen girl is so on her Xander's mind? Nope, she's eager to meet
new people…open to new experiences? Or maybe she already was

planning on scoping out the new "pretty much a hottie"?

Cool Buffy and Cordelia

At first they seem to fit together like two peas in a pod. The scene with
them sharing the book is cute upon cute, and because Cordelia is
functioning as a plot device in the ep, she ends up acting in ways that
can be considered subtexty. Would Queen C pay so much attention to
some new girl? Well, maybe she "likes her" likes her. I know, it's just
to move the plot…


Buffy meanwhile is nervous. She desperately wants to be the Buffy she
once was, the Cordelia-type from Hemery High. For her, Cordy
represents all the things she used to have: popularity, peace, parents
who were still married. But as the "cool test" goes on, Buffy's answers
get more and more assured. She passed! She's in! It's like the whole
freaky Slayer thing was a dream, she can be with Cordelia (take that
any way you want… *g*) and everything will be right again.


Boy, it's gonna take someone special to make Buffy give that up, huh?

9) Willow and Cordelia

Again, because Cordy has to move the plot, she acts a little slashy.
Why does she go out of her way to talk to Willow? (She could have just
kept talking to Buffy and Willow would have been gone in five seconds.)
Is there interest underneath all the barbs? And Willow seems
pleasantly surprised when Cordy compliments her dress. Has she
been waiting for this, hoping against hope for twelve years that Cordy
will one day start to be nice to her? Is there a quiet crush daring to
wish that Cordelia has changed? (As IMO, teenagers often do as they
mature.) But the moment passes, and Willow is left sideswiped and
speechless again, to the point where Cordelia actually has to ask her if
she's done. Oh, well, maybe there are other girls…


Like the one standing right next to Cordelia, for example…


More to come,

Dan


__________________________________________________________________________

I remain, as always,
Mad-Hamlet


I was born modest, but it wore off.
                         -Samuel Clement(Mark Twain)


Look upon my work ye mighty and...ah skip it.
http://www.realmoftheshadow.com/madhamlet.htm
                                    -Mad Hamlet


Creator & Editor of Radio: JAABAFF.
The first and only BtVS Femslash Radio Show.
http://www.wiffy-dreamverse.com/




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