Re: IT: Prioritising

["mudrat_26" <mudrat_26@xxxxxxxxx>]

Some staggeringly good points in there - I've made a few comments 
along similar lines previously myself...I didn't get a lot of 
support, so I thought I'd offer some.

I initially found this list via the Exquisite Coalescence website - 
hence I too believed it was primarily a fic list. I was corrected 
about the "mission statement" - OK, so there's discussion about the 
eps, too. Fair enough, I'm hip with that.

But recently there's a lot of negative stuff. Really aggressive 
stuff, slamming Joss, Marti, ME, whoever. Maybe the list needs to 
change it's identity - it could be called the "We-Love-Buffy-But-We-
Can't-Stand-Joss-with-a-bit-of-fic-thrown-in-for-good-measure" list. 
You'll notice I didn't call it the "we-hate-Joss" list - well, 
there's a reason for that. "Hate" is a very strong word, and one I 
avoid using, particularly in reference to another human being - 
particularly one I've never met and don't know. I'll say I don't 
like something, that it annoys the hell out of me or that I can't 
stand it - but not "hate". That way lies the path to the dark 
side....and pain, violence and generic nastiness. 

I made the comment "if you really don't like the show, don't watch 
it." I was told in response that "it's not that simple". Actually, 
it is. 

I agree with the description of BtVS as a marketable product - but 
it's not a case of us (the consumers) paying a commission and having 
the product (the show) made to our specifications. The producers 
(Joss, Marti, ME, whoever) make the product to their liking, then 
whack it on the shelves. We, as consumers, then make a conscious 
choice on whether or not we purchase that product. We actively 
choose to turn on the TV and change the channel every week. We have 
to accept some responsibility for our own choices. 

And as any high school media class teaches, possibly *the* most 
powerful tool for feedback that the average viewer has is the remote 
control. People can discuss the eps on lists as much as they like, 
but unless that feedback goes to the source..... The producers 
listen to the remote control. They might get some negative feedback 
sent to them, but the bottom line is that if they look at the 
ratings, and viewers are still watching, then they will work on the 
presumption that the majority of fans support what they are doing.

But I digress. Fine, there will be ep discussion - no dramas. I 
really have no problem with this - but it would be nice if it stuck 
more to the content on the eps, and not what people *presume* to be 
the thoughts/reasons/motivation the people behind the ep. And 
perhaps a little more general fic discussion, to balance things out.

I've had my rant, and no doubt (as per usual) only about 3 people 
will have bothered to read it. And they probably won't agree with me 
anyway, so it's probably a moot point.

And if I sound disillusioned, it's because I am. I came to this list 
looking to find people with a similar interest, maybe make a few 
friends, have a few conversations. Not having participated in one of 
these groups before, I spent a bit of time observing. As time went 
on, I gathered the courage to post - mentioning that I had doubts for 
doing so, because I was disagreeing with many others who had posted 
on that particular topic. Seems like my doubts may have been well 
founded. Some of the posts, and in particular the aggressiveness of 
recent months, can be quite intimidating. There's over 1000 people 
on this list, and about, what, say 50 or so, that post on a regular 
or semi-regular basis. And people wonder why we lurk....

On one point raised in a response to MadHamlet's original post - yes, 
I am guilty of being neglectful to the wonderful authors (dealers) 
who have supplied me with my fixes of fic over recent months. In 
particular I would like to express to Hunter, Dan, and more recently 
TheBear! and RedWillow my gratitude for their work. Have enjoyed 
everything I've read immensely, and can't wait for more....

Yours in disillusionment,
mudrat

who now only pops in occasionally to check on what fic has been 
posted and avoids all OT discussions. 



--- In buffywantswillow@y..., Mad Hamlet <Mad-Hamlet@u...> wrote:
> Greetings,
> 
> Hi there.
> 
> Guess what I'm gonna do?
> 
> Y'know what do I _Always_ do whenever I have something to post that 
isn't a
> fic?
> 
> That's right, I'm gonna bitch.
> 
> Of course there's a difference between this little bitch bout and 
previous
> ones. This time it could be taken personally. Usually when 
something I have to
> say could be taken personally I have a large number of witty 
moments and
> waivers to prevent anyone from feeling so upset in my general 
direction they
> feel the complusion to go and do something rash. (Like, I dunno, 
not like me
> anymore?)
> 
> This time I'm not.
> 
> I'd be subtle as well, mumbling, meandering, dancing around the 
subject of my
> distress but not out and out lambasting the problem in the middle 
of the
> public eye. Well, not on THIS forum at least. There were a few
> ...ahem...mentions on the now defunct JAABAW(R.I.P.) but that was 
my turf.
> Literally. So except for non local situations I was pretty, or 
attempted to be
> sublte and genteel.
> 
> This time I'm not.
> 
> The problem is not a trend, or a growing diffilculty; its here, its 
fatal and
> it IS destroying the list. 
> 
> The problem?
> 
> Simple. 
> 
> Too much conversation about canon. 
> 
> This in and of itself is not unseemly; indeed one great resource of 
fic
> ponderings IS discussion of fanfiction. Those heady days of 'What 
abouts' and
> 'What ifs' and all those other versimilutudes of possibilies(My, am 
I verbose
> today or what?) that were the blood, meat and bone of this list.
> 
> However this is not what is happening now. Instead there has been an
> explosion, a proliferation, a GOD DAMNDED INBREEDING AT RABBIT 
COPULATION
> SPEEDS OF(When applied to the growth, creation and spread of 
fanfiction)
> MEANLINGLESS DRIVEL!
> 
> This is _NOT_ a general BtVS Discussion list, this is not, point of 
order,
> even a Buffy and Willow shacking up and shagging like bunnies list.
> 
> This is a Buffy and Willow shacking up and shagging like bunnies 
FANFICTION
> list. 
> 
> Or at least it was.
> 
> For God's sake, look at the number of 'OT' threads that have been 
started.
> They're OT people! And in case any have forgotten that means OFF 
TOPIC!
> 
> Thus we can safly conclude that the infection of 'Off Topic' has 
spread like a
> bloody plauge and, because of it, the feedback, creation and 
posting of
> fanfiction has dropped to nil except for some really dedicated 
types. 
> 
> I mean, okay, not all the fanfiction posted was great; indeed some 
could have
> been labled 'Painful' others even perhaps 'BioHazard' but at LEAST 
it was
> being done!
> 
> Now?
> 
> Now it's a proliferation of OT and Spoilers spaces. I'm not on a 
fanfiction
> list anymore, I'm on a text based version of 'Space Invaders'
> 
> Cause
> 
> The 
> Text
> 
> Is Marching
> 
> Across
> Screen
> 
> Tromp
> Tromp 
> Tromp
> 
> Tromp
> Tromp
> Tromp
> 
> 
> 
> At this point I'm sure, anyone who is reading this, is narrowing 
their eyes
> and thinking in disgust, 'Well, if you don't like it Mad-Hamlet why 
don't you
> leave?'
> 
> A variation, no doubt, of that overabused phrase 'America, love it 
or leave it
> you pinko punk!' that was all the rage in the sixties(I really 
regret I missed
> those.)
> 
> To wit I answer: Cause I DO like it! IT being the writing and 
discussion of
> Buffy and Willow fanfiction; IT being the critique and enjoyment of 
stories;
> IT being fictious tales of two women in love that also happens to 
center
> around, for the most part, a pretty spiffy world; IT being the(And 
lets be
> honest here) the mental image of Willow and Buffy coiled around 
each other in
> all sorts of...mmmmmmmm....INTREStttiinngggg ways.
> 
> IT not predictions of S7; IT not being Spike, or Gardner or whoever 
the hell
> he is today's future; IT NOT being anything, or at least very 
little, with
> feelings, impressions of current canon; IT being NOTHING to do with 
Amber
> Benso, Tara or whatever. 
> 
> 
> And these meandering threads are just getting in the way!
> 
> Tell me that I'm wrong! Go back, over the list's history 
from...oh...let's say
> June of last year and count up the number of ongoing discussions 
labled OT
> verus the number of fanfictions posted and threads regarding those
> fanfictions. Remember to include disscussions about the 
possibilites of Canon
> B/W action because that is NOT related to fanfiction. 
> 
> The discussions themselves are not wrong, nay indeed is any 
discussion worng?
> Well, actually yes but that's not here nor there. The OT's here are 
just jim
> dandy in and of themselves. 
> 
> Their location on the other hand...
> 
> I would not say the situation has gotten to the point where an 
analogy would
> be as if someone went to a KKK message board and posted the top ten 
gangsta
> rap tunes of our times but it is getting pretty close.
> 
> 'Fine then, Mad.' The thoughts might be flowin' right now. 'You're 
so smart,
> what's the answer?'
> 
> I'm glad you noticed(Ego Plug, Ego Plug) well every time I log in 
to BWW
> personally to make sure I'm getting all the posts there's this BIG 
blue text
> RIGHT in the middle of the screen that reads 
> 
> 'MAKE NEW GROUP'
> 
> That'd be a good place to start now wouldn't it?
> 
> Or you could do the two other things I myself tried. 
> 
> 1. Making my own private real time channel on an IRC server.(That 
bombed like
> wouldn't believe)
> 
> 2. Making a personal Forum. (Okay, okay, I didn't MAKE JAABAW cause 
I'm a
> stone cold moron when it comes to programming but I had some good 
people who
> really knew there stuff till fate whupped us upside the head.)
> 
> And this is not me, telling you OT adovacates to take it
> elsewhere...well..actually I am...but I'm not telling you to take 
off. Indeed
> I'm not telling anybody anything. I'm suggesting though. I'll admit 
that; I'm
> suggesting really, really, heavily.
> 
> It's OFF TOPIC for a reason, so...and color me crazy if you 
want...how about
> we, I dunno, get just a wee bit more back on topic a bit more often?
> 
> Huh?
> 
> Maybe?
> 
> JUUuuuuuuuuuuuuuuusssst possibly?
> 
> I remain, as always,
> Mad-Hamlet
> 
> 
> W.B. Yeats: What rough beast, its hour come at last, slouches 
toward Bethlehem
> to be born?
> 
> Mad-Hamlet: Me.