Re: my thoughts on Willlow and B/D note

["japmap" <japmap@xxxxxxxxx>]

Hi there:

You raise and support some interesting and valid points, especially 
about personal responsibility and what Tara maybe ought to have done
(though maybe there are reasons why she couldn't/didn't)-- as lover, 
fellow Wiccan, friend and Scooby. Generally speaking, "the buck 
stops there". However, I think that this situation is a bit 
different. Specifically, Giles is a watcher, and while most watchers 
train and support their slayer only, "Buffy" as slayer really 
includes the whole team; Willow's use of magicks, growth of power, 
etc. did, after all, largely evolve from her role as a Scooby. Now 
given Giles' own personal experience, knowledge and insight, and that 
he knew from way in the beginning just how powerful the magicks were 
that Willow used, I do think he should have been more "watchery" 
about training and supporting her.  

Anyway, as the saying goes, "hindsight is 20/20". Just my two cents 
worth.

Japmap

--- In buffywantswillow@y..., "myself03" <myself03@u...> wrote:
> Hey,
> 
> You know, i've kind of kept myself from the Buffy discussions for 
awhile, mostly because I no longer think i have the ability to 
properly analize the show without making it a "that's the way I see 
thing" type of review,(i've become extremelly anal as the years 
pass... weird...)but i've read a few posts, mainly the two that i 
believe are the two most antagonic views on the show so far : Dan and 
Kimber's... As i read them i had a hard time trying not to make a few 
observations on each , but as i read yours i just had to speak 
up...Now, before anything, know that this is my opinion and my 
opinion alone...It's not based on what Joss intended for the show, or 
how the show is, but MY view on the particular subject(s)...Also, 
Tara fans may not like what they read, so if you want turn back now...
> 
> First, the Willow-Giles stuff...You know, I love Willow...She is , 
without a doubt, one of my fav tv shows characters...Now, i know that 
season six did horrors to the character but i still love Willow...Of 
course i prefer the normal , non-addicted Willow, but if broody or 
veiny is all i'm getting , so be it, i fell in love with her from the 
start and i'll love her til the end, despite the bumps on the road, 
but that doesn't mean that i won't be critical when it comes to 
her...And that is one of the reasons i just can't seem to agree with 
you...The only person that can be held responsible for Willow's 
attitudes is WIllow herself...Surely WIllow could have used Giles 
guidance, but i don't actually remember her asking for it in any way, 
in fact, the whole Willow-Magic thing started kicking off in the 
fourth season, and if i remember correctly this was the one where 
they lived their college lives and forgot about the watcher guy, so 
for him to to guide her would be kind of hard...And of course, later 
on Willow had her orgasmic magic lover, so where Giles would fit i 
don't quite understand...If i wanted to blame a third party for the 
point that Willow got( and i'll admit that sometimes i do) i would 
blame the saint , pure, superior Tara...Wasn't she the one who was 
with Willow in the whole magic thing, who spent almost two seasons 
boosting Willow's ego and braging about her lover's super powers to 
everyone who would hear and helping her float roses and stuff...If 
Tara really wanted to serve as a guide for Willow or her intention 
was only get the redhead into bed are past the point , but the truth 
of the matter is, Tara spent so much time sucking up to Willow that 
when she finally woke up the student had passed the teacher, and when 
she tried to put a limit to it...well, it was already too late....Or 
anybody really thinks that the first time that WIllow did a party 
decoration kind of spell...Quite frankly, from what i saw about that 
relationship prior to that moment i had the impression that spells 
like that were quite normal for the couple...I got the impression 
that around that time Tara let aside her "i'll let her do everything 
she wants and maybe she'll like me even more " posture and started to 
realize that it was consuming Willow even more...And even then, 
instead of trying to help her get back on the track ( thus proving 
she's an awful ex) she just left Will to get better by herself ....I 
mean, breaking things off and parting ways for a small time it's 
okay, but she all but abandoned Willow and only came backe when she 
was "aparently" cured...Well, i said i only blamed Will, but looking 
back on what i just wrote i guess that's not entirely true...I guess 
i'm still a little bitter, because people just seem to think of Tara 
as this noble great victim in this whole situation, it's almost as if 
she is a saint after season 6....Or maybe it's because i saw Fear 
Itself and i remembered a great O/W moment or maybe, just maybe, i 
was never a fan of the character to begin with, it doesn't realy 
matter....What i'm trying to say is, if I wanted to blame anyone oher 
that Wills for the getting out of control stuff it certainly wouldn't 
be Giles.... 
> 
> 
> Well, that is what I think about this particular point...Of course, 
now that I opened pandora's box i'll probably end up comenting a few 
more things...Like Season six : sucked beyond belief or it is all 
part of a greater plan...I'll admit beforehand that i tend to lean 
towards Dan's way of thinking, mainly because he can reason without 
making it seem it's because of one thing in particular, and it's 
quite good to see that, since most of the reasons people use to 
justify his / hers dislike towards season six is based on it being 
the season Tara died , Spike tried to rape Buffy or WIllow went evil, 
as if the lack of consistency and the betrayal of principles 
presented on the show and the degradation of certain characters 
weren't there prior to these events....But I won't get into this 
now...I'm off to check the results for the ellection...Um, to think 
my next president will be a guy that can hardly speak portuguese, let 
alone a second language or the one that says he is going , in four 
years,to fix everything his mentor did wrong in eight...
> 
> Well, that was it...Okay, there is something else....The amount of 
mention to B/D recentely is Scary, at least to me....Maybe it's 
because i can't think of Buffy as anything other than a mother or a 
sister to her and that's like incest, but if you can...well, i want 
to say good for you, but i can't either, so .... Anyway, the reason 
behind this is to say that if you want to talk about Dawn and Buffy 
make the perfect pair, or write a fic about them, please do, but 
just , please DON'T do it here...I know that we are very tolerant 
about other ships here ( within reason, of course) but this is one i 
REALLY wouldn't like to see here...I know i'm probably letting my 
personal opinion(although, i can also say i loath F/B and T/W and 
even so i allowed them here, so it's not really about that) let on 
the middle of the list issues, but i know for a fact that i'm not the 
one who's not comfortable with this, so.... Plus, it's a B/W list, so 
it wouldn't be so hard to do....
> 
> ¨That was it....
> I'm off now...
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Greywolf 
> To: buffywantswillow@y... 
> Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2002 2:03 AM
> Subject: ::BuffyWantsWillow:: my thoughts on Willlow
> 
> 
> dont know maybe spoilery
> 
> 
> You know after thinking a long time about "Veiny Willow" I can 
only come to one conclusion and that it's Giles's fault Willow went 
all Evil on us.
> 
> I mean here is Super smart watcher dude who apparently went thru 
his own evil period back in his history. He sees Willow perform a 
extremely high level spell (pulls Angel's soul out of the ether and 
put it back in him). A spell that took a whole clan of gypsies to do 
it the first time. What does Giles do? Pats willow on the head. Then 
we come to resurecting Buffy All G-man can do is piss and moan at 
Willow regardless of the fact that she survived the trials of Osirus 
to do it. Now why the hell didnt Giles yank Willow out of sunnydale 
or send for someone to train her there after the Angel soul deal? 
Instead of letting the most powerful little wicca ever wonder around 
aimlessly untrained.... Stupid witing by all involved...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gteywolf