Re: Discussion on "Two to Go"/"Grave" - BtVS finale

["ebailey140" <ebailey140@xxxxxxx>]

--- In buffywantswillow@y..., Bionic Slayer <bionicslayer@y...> wrote:
> 
> My thoughts after viewing last night's eps...also contains a 
snippet from Joss whedon regarding Tara. I also have a bit of 
speculation regarding next season based solely on last nights 
eps....i will add the appropriate spoiler space (just incase) when I 
get to that part of my post.

Hmm, do I respond from an B/W shipper perspective, or an objective 
Buffy fan perspective? Maybe I'll try both.

Beware, though, I can see the perspective of many ships :)
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> I had my doubts about the episode prior to viewing it...because I 
really didn't see how Willow was going to get herself out of it after 
the skinning from last week's ep. However, it ended up being better 
than I thought it would be.
> 
> From a shipper's perspective...the fact that Buffy didn't SAY I 
love you didn't really matter if you think about it. Its the action 
that counts. She bent over backwards...even seemingly forgiving the 
attack on Dawn and Giles by rage willow by her never ending quest to 
make willow stop. She did everything in her power to protect the 
nerd duo...ONLY to prevent Willow from crossing another line...the 
death of innocents (jonathon and andrew in the respect that they 
didn't kill tara)...instead of vengeance against Warren for tara. 
All she wanted was for her friends to be happy...and she got it...or 
at least the potential for happiness. And the fight between Buffy 
and Willow...I thought it was as good as could be expected. Buffy 
only defended herself from willow...and she wanted to stop every 
chance she could...her one thought...to save willow from being lost 
forever. So what if she didn't say I LOVE YOU...she certainly showed 
it...throughout the finale. Yes, she ended by noticing 
Dawn....well....she would have noticed Willow too...give xander a 
small bone....hes endured a thankless season....and NB was good too.>

And the W/X shippers are happy. 

Buffy's and Dawn's relationship... Since Dawn appeared, I've 
wondered if the PTB had originally intended her for Faith. Faith was 
the one making the Big Sister and Little Sister comments, after all. 
Maybe there's as much Faith as Buffy in Dawn. But, this isn't the 
place for that...

Willow has a lot of making up to do. Wonder what her perspective on 
Buffy will be, given the whole bit about power?
> 
> From the perspective of an Aly fan: it was sorta cool to hear/see 
AH get to be the heavy...WHAT an Actress that woman is. The one 
liners were sorta hokey in that they reminded me of 'go ahead make my 
day' kinda things...but hey..it was action at its best at times. The 
chase scene with the 18 wheeler...that was just cool. I just LOVE 
Aly!!!
> 
> Anya was great...where are they going with her though?? The only 
time shes used her vengeance powers was to teleport. Very interested 
in seeing where that goes.
> 
> From the perspective of a gay woman who felt slighted by ME for 
taking away a very positive gay role model...well...thats where I'm 
confused. Yesterday I was all bent out of shape by everything...just 
dreading the episode....but I started to think about things after I 
read a snippet from Joss Whedon from the UPN board...heres a portion 
of what he said:
> 
> "And I knew some people would be angry with me for destroying the 
only gay couple on the show, but the idea that I COULDN'T kill Tara 
because she was gay is as offensive to me as the idea that I DID kill 
her because she was gay. Willow's story was not about being gay. It 
was about weakness, addiction, loss... the way life hits you in the 
gut right when you think you're back on your feet. The course of true 
love never did run smooth, not on my show."
> 
> His point about not killing Tara because she is gay being just as 
offensive...is a valid point. However, it doesn't make any easier 
for those of use that found a bit of peace (at last) finally seeing a 
cannon gay couple on prime time tv. Now, instead of being angry and 
bitter...I'm just sad and confused about the whole thing.>

Consider it like when Jenny died. Forget the respective genders of 
the couples. 
> 
> What I didn't like?? Well, the ending was a cheese fest...but 
after the heart wrenching desperation of most of season 6....perhaps 
i'll let it slide. The earth monster demons...um....i guess they 
used their effect budgets up with all the teleporting and magic 
whammies.... Don't know how I feel about the changing of the guards 
though...that was over the top for me. I'm not sure how I feel about 
Dawn...she wasn't as much of a cousin Oliver as shes been ALL SEASON 
LONG...but still ...I'll just have to wait and see...>

Dawn came off as someone you caould SEE as being built out of a 
Slayer.

> 
> What I will be doing next season?? Well...I couldn't stop watching 
BtVS unless they killed Willow...or Buffy declares her love 
for 'william'...or willow suddenly becomes straight after a season 
and a 1/2 of her saying at various times..."gay now"..."If i wasn't 
already gay...", etc. However, I don't know if that will happen.>

I've always thought of Willow as bi, actually. The person she was in 
love with for the last season and a half happened to be female. 

> I was a BtVS fan along time before I was a b/w 
fan....therefore...as long as B/W can at least be best friends 
again...and that other horrible stuff doesn't happen...i'm going to 
give it a shot. Bad BtVS is still better than alot of other shows on 
tv. What Whedon said about Willow's arc not being about her 
orientation but about how she deals with loss is a common life 
situation. I will watch next season if for no other reason than to 
give ME a chance to show that Willow can be redeemed for murder. Many 
would argue that Warren's death was at least understandable..if not 
justifiable. Buffy never forgot Angelus...but I think she forgave 
him....so what if they're not the same innocents that they were 6 
years ago. BtVS is not "The Simpsons". They grow up. We all grow 
up. We all lose our innocence....its the fact that we keep growing 
and learning from out mistakes...and mortal sins...that make us 
human. 
> 
> speculation follows on next season....
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> Willow is going to have a hard time of it. It looks as though 
she'll have her circle of friends, her family, there to help her 
though. Spike/William...thats what I'm interested in. I don't like 
buffy whipped spike at all. I didn't like William in 'Fool for Love' 
either. I do like bad spike though...in his place...as a bad 
vampire. What I'm intrigued by...at least for now anyway...what 
exactly happened to him. He now has a soul....but is he still a 
vampire?? If he is human again...will he be a bad human or a good 
human?? Will he attempt to woo buffy?? If he does...does he have 
the least bit of remorse for anything he did as a vampire?? I say 
not. Therefore...for him to truly be redeemed...he should go on his 
own...find his own way in the world. That could be good...get a 
spike/william that is not a big bad...the hell out of sunnydale..... >

It seems he's still a vampire, but with his human soul restored. Of 
course, he'll be full of remorse. He was a much nicer, gentler, and 
more introverted human than Angel was. 

That said, I think he will handle it better than Angel did. He's 
better equipped for it. Unlike Angel, he's seen all this. He'll 
know there was a higher purpose to what has just happened to him. As 
a human, he was the romantic chivilric knight type. That's why Dru 
picked him, to be her romantic knight hero. He was still a romantic, 
chivilric knight, but an EVIL, SOULLESS romantic chivilric knight. 
That's why he was always a more complex, and conflicted, soulless 
vampire than Angelus was. The chivilric code, the ability to love, 
the protectiveness, the sensitivity to others, was such a part of him 
as a human that it was still there as a vampire. 
> 
> Let B/W have one last season to have some sort of a chance....that 
would be the coolest. But, if it doesn't happen....I'll still watch 
the show....just so I can bitch at the tv... Hey...at least its 
thought provocing....even though it pisses me off sometimes.

Well, there is still the possibility that Buffy may really be 
completely straight, and never picked up Faith's signals :)
> 
> I know...my discussion has not been very cohesive...thats what the 
show does to me though. It throws in my face...in each and every 
ep...the complexities that is life....the greyness of it all....

That's the deal, and I think the main problem a lot have had with the 
show: Life really IS messy, complex, and complicated. Nothing's 
ever simple. 

E