Re: when did it all begin?

["ebailey140" <ebailey140@xxxxxxx>]

--- In buffywantswillow@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, danspector@w... wrote:
> A few random thoughts before I make my (longwinded) points:
>
> 1) Always nice to see a good discussion, but
> 2) We are a looong way from the original point, which was the origins of
> B/W 'shipping (in fandom, not on screen, as I understood Chris's
> original post), and 

Though, exploring how ships begin, in general, tells us a lot about
B/W, and it's origins.  Essentually, the B/G shipper has much the same
view of relationships and subtext as the B/W shipper, but comes to
different conclusions.

> 3) Opinions are great, and I've got plenty, but let's remember that
> there are multishippers here.  We can criticize the 'shipsI'll be the
> first to say that I don't understand how awkward noncommunicative chats
> with your attempted rapist, where nothing is ever resolved (except
> teasing the 'shippers for another week) qualify as being "great"
> together (at least S6 Spuffy was "This sucks as a relationship, but the
> sex is hot" [well, we were told the characters found it hotfrankly, I
> thought Buffy looked fairly sickened], but S7 lacked even that upside),
> but let's make sure not to cross the line to personal attacks&which
> IMO "ick, ick, ick" is perilously close to.

Actually, what made the S7 relationship work was that it developed
into a close, platonic, bond, a genuinely true loving friendship. 
While everything else was falling apart around them, they knew they
could count on each other (Willow being too distracted by studded
tongues to be as loyal as she should have been).
> As for B/G:
>
> "Get your books, look stuff up" is a direct quote from "The Pack", the
> scene where Giles is trying to "Scully" Buffy, dismissing her ideas that
> Xander is possessed.  When Willow comes with the news that Herbert the
> pig was eaten and asks what he's going to do, he replies abashedly "Get
> my books.  Look stuff up." and ASH does a great job here of looking like
> he just got kicked in the ass.
>
> Later in the same ep, Giles and Dr. Weirick (the zookeeper) are getting
> lost in the details of animal possession and Buffy brings them back on
> topic with a scolding "Boys!".  I think that was the moment when the
> idea of Buffy/Giles as daughter/father died for me.
>
> But an earlier deathblow has to be in the teaser for "Witch", the VERY
> FIRST scene of the VERY FIRST ep (after the pilot), where Giles doesn't
> want Buffy to join the cheerleading squad and Buffy goes "And you'll be
> stopping me how?"  (And gives him a very sexy smirk, and then ignores
> him, and goes cheerleading.)  Right from the very beginning, it was
> established that Buffy, not Giles, is the boss here.

Yep. 
> Buffy's reactions to Joyce (her ACTUAL parent) and to Giles could not be
> more different.  Buffy has to submit to Joyce, follow her orders, and
> when she doesn't, she's in severe trouble (as in "Bad Eggs" for
> example).  Giles doesn't have any authority over Buffyhe can't cut
> off her allowance, move her to a new city against her will, or commit
> her to a mental institution.  (A good deal of the horror of the [implied
> abusive] step-parent in "Ted" is that by romancing her mother, this
> stranger will gain the power to run Buffy's life.) And with Giles we
> never get the "I really don't like you, but you're family, so I'm stuck
> with you" attitude that Buffy takes to Dawn, or that Joyce takes to
> Buffy (see her conversation with Giles in "Bad Eggs", about children
> being a "burden").  I don't mean that Buffy doesn't love Dawn or Joyce
> doesn't love Buffy, but family is an obligation.  Friends are a choice.
> Giles is Buffy's friend, not her dad.
>
> Giles didn't raise Buffy.
> Giles didn't install her attitudes, her morals, her values.
> Giles doesn't share a history with Buffy, didn't share her home life,
> didn't substitute for the father that Buffy actually has and has a
> complex relationship with.
> Giles doesn't have authority over Buffy in the least.
>
> Yeah, he's an older guy who gives her information and tries to protect
> her.  Put a leather jacket on that and you've got Angel.

Good point.  Then, there's Spike, who developed into something of a
dark mirror for Giles.  And, why did she respond to Giles leaving by
making out with a protective older English guy?  "You know I was
thinking about Giles, right?"
> In fact, Angel/Giles equivalencies were drawn throughout the length of
> the series, starting in the pilot episode,  ("This&guy.  Dark,
> gorgeousin an annoying kind of way.  I FIGURED YOU TWO WERE BUDS.
> [emphasis added]), and up through the Angel/Giles chat in "Pangs", where
> they talk about how neither one of them can let Buffy go.
>
> Of course, Buffy then moved on from dating older guys who educated her
> and had nominal (but not practical) authority over her.  Oh, wait,
> noshe dated **her teacher**.
>
> If there's one pattern in Buffy's relationships, it's that she likes men
> who are older (even if Angel was "26", that's still 10 years;  Parker
> was a senior, Riley a grad student, and let's not forget Tom the college
> guy, or her flirting with Ben, who was 25 to Buffy's 19/20) and who are
> emotionally distant (brooding Owen, brooding Angel, the "pain" Parker
> faked over his dad's "death", tongue-tied and awkward Riley) and who
> have knowledge to offer (Cryptic Warning Guy, poetry geek Owen, history
> student Tom, Cameron rhapsodizing about the ocean, Parker's helpful tips
> on dorm life, Riley the teacher['s assistant]).  They can't ALL be
> "ewww, insesed!" (to quote an illiterate review a friend got for a B/G
> story on ff.net).  In fact, none of them are.

And, let's not forget she went on a date with her boss in S7.  
> (And yeah, Spike's a complete break to this pattern.  Which one reason
> it was never credible to me.)
Not really a complete break, as they started paralleling Giles and
Spike with the swing scene in Restless.  Then, we had Tabula Rasa
(with Giles and Spike trying to decide how they're related), Spike's
attempts to be the protective mentor and guide, and the exchange where
Buffy's trying to explain why she made out with him in the balcony.

> Is Giles the reason Buffy slays?  Absolutely not.  As E pointed out,
> "Welcome to the Hellmouth" makes it clearit's not orders and
> blathering about "duty" that get Buffy going, it's a sense of personal
> responsibility, connection to the people she has to save that motivates
> her.  So when Giles scolds her about "honing" her senses and so on, all
> it gets him is a nasty stare and "You're like a textbook with arms!  I
> know this already."  But when she sees that Willow is threatened, sees
> the human cost of her inaction, she leaps into action, forgets her "no
> slaying!" vow, and then spends most of the next episode beating herself
> up over how her incompetence got Jesse killed.  
>
> Yes, sometimes Giles acts as her conscience, motivates her to do what
> she knows is right, but that's no more than what Willow ("Prophecy
> Girl") or Xander ("The Freshman") or Angel ("Gingerbread") also do.
> Buffy does NOT jump when Giles says so, in fact that's liable to be
> counterproductive (see "Reptile Boy").
>
> In fact, the show makes it clear that Buffy and Giles have a very
> different relationship from standard Slayer/Watcher when Wesley comes to
> town.  From "Bad Girls":
>
> WESLEY (confused, slightly appalled):  Are you not used to being given
> orders?
> BUFFY (mocking):  Whenever Giles has a mission for me, he says "please".
> And then I get a cookie!
>
> Buffy is the boss, and she usually stops Giles from dithering and gets
> him to take action.  (Why, yes, I've just been watching "I Robot, You
> Jane"how could you tell? [See also "Teacher's Pet", "The Pack",
> "Nightmares", "School Hard", "Inca Mummy Girl", etc, etc&])
>
> One part of this is that "father figure" is thrown around loosely,
> confusing "I like you because you have the same qualities I admire in my
> dad" (which is healthy and normal and Buffy's pattern) with "I never had
> a dad, so let me fuck you and I'll feel less lonely" (which would not be
> healthy, obviously).  "Father figure" is actually a term from Jungian
> psychology which has gotten misinterpreted in popular cultureit has
> far more to do with mentoring/role models than with any sort of
> quasi-"parental" role, much less unhealthy incestuous implications.
>
> (For an essay on B/G and "father figure", check this out:
http://web.archive.org/web/20010717164958/www.boadicea.net/buffygiles/fathe=

r.htm
> Sorry about the long addy, but the site is temporarily offline, so I had
> to use Wayback.)

And, as some have pointed out, George Michael's "Father Figure" isn't
about a parental relationship.  To a degree, Tara was a mother figure
for Willow.

> PSHowever, I must furiously disagree with E's characterization of
> Willow as Buffy's "sister figure".  

Not my description.  But, it's what B/W shippers run into in general
forums when it's brought up.

E



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Willow: "It's a good fight, Buffy, and I want in."
Buffy:  "I kinda love you."
                     'Choices'

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